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JohnV

Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« on: July 12, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Since Ran asked me to send out some other descriptions, I thought that I'd send this one.  The Pete Dye Club is in the coal fields of West Virginia.  Again as with the Cuscowilla description it probably better for replies to be sent under a separate topic so people don't have to re-load this all the time.Pete Dye Golf ClubI've played a number of Pete Dye's courses, including Kiawah - Ocean, PGA West Stadium, La Quinta Mountain and the Paiute Nu-Waiv-Kai courses.  I've also spent a week walking around the TPC at Sawgrass Stadium course.  Given all that, I think that The Pete Dye Golf Club is the best course of his that I've had the opportunity to see or play.  The course has all the challange you can ask for without many of the odd-ball features that he has been criticized for over the years.  I don't even remember seeing one railroad tie out there (except under the mining cars at the entrance.)The course is in a small valley just outside Bridgeport, West Virginia.  The area is an old coal mining site and the theme is carried through some of the holes.  A river winds through the course and comes into play on a number of holes.  There are also two large man-made lakes that are in play for 2 or 3 holes.  The tees, fairways and greens are all bent grass and the overall condition was excellent.   The land has a fair amount of ups and downs but it certainly isn't hilly.  It is a very easy walking course.  I played with a caddie in 2 hours and 30 minutes, playing through all three of the groups in front of me.  There are no real long walks between any green or tees, but you do have to climb a pretty decent hill to the to the 7th tee.  The day I played, I teed off at 9AM and had 3 groups of 4 ahead of me and one other group of 3 including ex-Philadelphia Phillie John Kruk behind me.  I didn't see any players other than these while I was there.  The course plays up to 7166 yards on the Championship tees.  I played the "Back" tees which are 6750 yards.  The yardages I'll give are from those tees.The first hole is a par 4 of 375 yards.  The hole goes slightly up hill for the first 250 yards.  There are 8 small bunkers down the left side.  At the 250 yard mark the fairway turns left and drops about 15 feet to a lower level.  The carry over the bunkers is about 240.  From this lower level the shot is back up hill to a green that is level with the first part of the fairway. and has to carry a small pot bunker at the front left.  The best way to play the hole is actually to layup on the top level and leave a shot of 115 to 140 yards in.  Unfortunately I didn't do that and had to hit a half wedge up the hill over a small pot bunker, which I fatted my shot into.  Next time I'll know better.  From the upper level there is a bunker that is 30 or 40 yards short of the green that must be carried, but otherwise the green is open.The second is a true cape hole with the river to the left of the entire fairway and green.  It plays 406 yards and the tee shot must carrry the river.  You can bite off as much as you want.  There is one fairway bunker on the far side about 260 yards from the tee.  The green has two bunkers between it and the river and is set against a hillside.Number 3 is a par 4 of 352 yards.  A large bunker runs almost 100 yards down the right side ending about 125 yards from the green.  About 260 yards from the tee, a deep chasm comes in from the right and narrows the fairway to almost nothing.  Longer hitters need to layup short of this.  The green angles from left to right with 2 bunkers guarding the center and right hole locations.  A couple of tiers divide the green and the back tier slopes away.The fourth is a par 3 with tees at 147, 175, 200 and 225.  The green is 38 yards deep, but looks larger.  The green wraps around a lake to the left.  A bunker behind the right side and a chipping area of the right front guard against the bailout.  To me this was one of the least interesting holes on the course as it was really just a standard par 3 over/around a lake.  I'm sure the back hole location from the back tees would be really hard, but not particularly interesting.Number 5 is a really neat par 5. The hole is 525 yards (580 from the back).  The river runs along the entire right side of the hole and the lake next to #4 is on the left ending about 100 yards from the tee.  The tee shot is flat and hit towards a wall of bunkers in the distance.  More bunkers squeeze you from the left the further you go.  The river is really pretty far off on the right with a lot of normal rough to save you.  After your tee shot, you have a couple of options.  The fairway goes left (not that you want to) and up a hill about 15 feet high.  It then turns back right and disappears behind the bunkers in front of you.  This is where you will hit your layup.  Otherwise, if you want to go for the green it it is about 10 to 15 feet higher than you and over a corner of the river to the right of the bunkers.  A drive of 260 yards leave about a 230 yard carry to the green.  And I do mean carry.   Assuming you aren't brave enough, a shot of about 120 yards puts you safely on the fairway above the bunkers with a straightforward shot of about 130 yards into the green which has a couple of teirs.  There are blind bunkers and mounds on the far side of the fairway for those who hit their second shot too far.  The biggest hitters might be able to hit their drives down to where they have around 200 yards to the green, but they better not miss it if they go for it.  This hole more than makes up for the blandness of #4.The short par 4 sixth is 320 yards and runs uphill.  The main hillside of the valley is on the right. and wraps around behind the green.  A creek crosses the fairway about 140 yards off the tee and runs up the left side threatening a pulled or hooked tee shot.  It goes in front of the left front of the green,  around the left side and behind the green up into the hills.  A number of finger ridges come down from the hillside to give un-even lies to balls hit down the right side.  The tee shot is from a pulpit style tee but is still generally uphill.  There are no fairways bunkers and all the "greenside" bunkers are actually on the opposite bank of the creek from the green.  There is one short left in the little curve of the creek and three to the left and rear.  The back right bunker (which is probably never in play as it is 10 or more yards behind the green) is filled with black coal sands.  The greens has one ridge that separates the right front from the rest of it.  Behind the green is the entrance to a coal tunnel.  This tunnel leads to the 7th hole although I didn't go through it because I was rushing to play through a group.  This was a pretty good short par 4, with the creek definitely in your mind on both shots.  I wouldn't relish hitting the bunkers shots over the creek to a tight hole either.Instead of using the tunnel, I climbed the hill behind 6 to the 7th hole.  This is a drop shot par 3 of 173 yards.  It plays downhill at least 20 to 30 feet and considerably shorter than the yardage.  The primary tee wraps around in an arc with the shorter tees on the ends.  The green is well protected by bunkers left and right and a sharp drop off behind the green.  Again, it wasn't that wonderful a par 3 in my opinion.  But the ones on the back are better.  There is a false front on the green and two small sections in the wider rear of the green.The par 5 8th hole is another good one.  The hole is only 492 yards so it is reachable.  The tee shot is uphill to a landing area with a number of bunkers down the left side.  The fairway has a lot of undulations so a flat lie is rare.  The second shot is downhill to a green that is very narrow and angled from front left to back right.  A huge bunker runs along the right side for the last 150 yards with a coal filled cliff directly beside it.  The right side bailout has 3 nasty bunkers about 20 to 40 yards from the green.  The layup isn't too hard  though and leaves a wedge up the length of the green.  Smartly played, this hole is perhaps the best chance for a birdie on the front 9.  Which is good because number 9 is a monster.The 9th is a 438 yard par 4, but the day I played it the tees were on the back box at 462 yards.  The tee shot is over the river to a fairway that starts on the left side about 160 yards out, but on the right requires a carry of 237 yards over a large pit filled with deep rough.  The fairway is further bisected by a bunker that sits 256 yards from the tee right in the middle.  Another bunker guards the right side.  The fairway is probably 50 yards wide at its widest, but that bunker in the middle is really in your mind as you tee off.  The right is the place to hit it if you are brave as it opens the green up.  From the left you have a long shot over 3 bunkers that guard the green which runs from right front to back left.  The green has two levels and a small false front.  This is one hard hole that requires two excellent shots to get on the green.The 10th has one of the few phony features of the entire course.  The tee shot is again across the river to a fairway that is entirely visible and  slides to the right.  The green is visible in the distance and has a waterfall coming out the side of it.  The entire right side of the hole drops down to some heavy rough and two bunkers.  The hole isn't a cape because the drive is basically straight across and you can't bite off anything by going further right.  The green has two levels.  A small creeks has been run under the green from the left to come out in the waterfall which is a series of rock shelfs.  From the tee you see this waterfall and figure it is completely phony.  Once you get up closer though you see that it might have been there all along and Dye just built the green over the top of it.  Either way it does look really weird.  The hole plays 414 yards to a green that is 40 yards deep.Number 11 is a long par 5 of 588 yards.  The fairway snakes a little winding left, right and back left but it plays pretty straight in general.  There is one large bunker that is down a hill on the left to protect the drive, another one about 160 yards out on the right to catch wayward second shots and about 5 around a raised green with two levels that is best approached from the right.Number 12 is a short par 4 of 320 yards.  This has the other "non-natural" looking feature.  There is a large mound about 15 feet high and 20 feet across with a bunker cut in it about 220 yards from the tee on the left side. The fairway doglegs around this to a green that is very wide and shallow.  There are a total of 14 bunkers on this hole, all are down the left side and the front of the green except for 2 behind it.  At the same distance from the tee as the mound, trees come in from the right and overhang the fairway.  This is the only place on the entire course that trees are really in play.  There are a lot around, but they are well back from the holes except here.  The player can layup short of the big mound but then has a blind shot to the green or can hit driver up the right side and hope to miss the trees.  I did this and was rewarded with a 60 yard shot straight into the green.  Risky but worth it.  The mound does look phony though as it doesn't fit with the rest of the contours of the course.13 is a Redan style par 3 of 176 yards from the "back" tees and 195 from the tips.  The green is quite shallow and doesn't slope away too radically.  The bunkers in the front left are definitely in play and the entire hole is a carry over some long rough.  It requires a good shot to hit it.  This was definitely my favorite par 3 on the course.The fourteenth hole is a long par 4 of 434 yards.  The hole doglegs right around a series of bunkers.  Inside the curve from the bunkers is an old stone wall.  The fairway is quite wide and the hole has 7 teeing grounds with the longest playing at 488.  The green has one bunker to the front right and a drop off behind with a bunker to save balls hit over the green.  This seemed to be to be an real example of a mellower Pete Dye.  In the old days, the back of that green would probably have dropped straight down into the river behind.  Now he gives you a bunker and some rough to save you.Number 15 is another par 5. This one is 503 yards long.  There are a pair of large lakes that run down the entire right side of the hole.  The green is tucked up close enough to them that you can drop on the green if you hit it in the water.  There is a bunker that you can aim at down the left side, but is probably only reachable by the longest hitters.  Another set of bunkers sits about 30 yards short and left of the green to catch bailouts or overly aggresive layups.  Otherwise this hole is rather featureless.  The lake is bordered by flat sheets of slate or some other type of rock.  This was one of the less interesting holes to me.The 16th hole is a downhill par 3 of 226 yards (243 from tips).  The green is set in a little hollow.  There is a bunker right of it. At the left front, there is a large mound that kicks the ball to the middle of the green.  Behind the mound is a low level with another higher one behind it.  The day I played the flag was in this lower level and was almost inaccessible, although a ball may roll around the mound and get down there.  Possibly it requires a shot to the center to get to the left and to the left to get to the right.  I'd like to play it more to different holes to really see what you have to do.The 17th is a short par 4 of 382 yards.  The hole doglegs left and the tee shot needs to carry one of two bunkers 160 and 200 yards out to get to optimum position.  The green is quite deep, and wide but plays considerably smaller.  There are three bunkers on the left of the green.  To the right and rear there are higher areas that drop down about 6 feet to the edge of the green  from there the green slopes up severely to about 4-5 feet above the bottom. While the entire green is about 40 feet wide and 60 feet deep, the center of the green is about 20 feet wide and 40 feet deep and is all that can be used for hole locations.  Anything outside of this area will run down to the bottom leaving some nasty chips up.  I played it 3-iron, sand wedge so it isn't too severe for the shot required.  Even the usuable section of the green has some serious undulations in it.  A really fun green complex that could cause a lot of players grief.The 18th is another cape hole very similar to the 2nd.  Again the tee shot is over the river with the hole going away to the left.  It is 426 yards long.    About 125 yards short of the green is a large mound on the left side of the fairway and the fairway then dips down to the green.  This means that if you hit your drive anywhere other than the extreme left edge of the fairway (bringing the river into play), you second is likely to be blind.  I hit two drives, the second was perfect, about 10 yards in from the edge on the left and I could see the entire green.  5 yards further right and all was blind.  There are two bunkers at the front of the green.  The back left is hard up against the river and behind it is a large hillside.  The river is 15 feet below the green/fairway so balls down there are unplayable.  It does have the appearance of another Pete Dye 18th hole ala the TPCs and Blackwolf run, but it does fit the landscape well.

Ran Morrissett

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Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2000, 07:00:00 PM »
I thought I would bring this post forward as the site has about 1,000 more visitors than when this was first posted  

APBernstein

Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2000, 07:00:00 PM »
I agree with just about everything that Mr Vander Borght had to say in his review.  Interesting note is that I played with John at my home club in Charleston, WV the day before he played at Pete Dye Golf Club.I have played Pete Dye a few times and still would like to get back to see how the 17th green works with different pins.  The green is really something that has to be seen in person to get a feel for the amount of undulations in it.What will immediately strike you after the round is the similarity between holes 2 and 18.  However, after more reflection, you realize just how good these natural cape holes really are!My favorite holes on the golf course are 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, 12 (could be so much better if the "unnatural" mound was softened), 13, 14 (the strongest and the best hole in my opinion), and 18.  Tells you something about a course when you list nine (9) favorite holes on a golf course.Andrew

Ryan Farrow

Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2010, 05:52:45 PM »
Just thought I would Bring John's post back from a decade ago as I just played Pete Dye Golf Club.

As far as modern courses go, I must say that this is almost at the top of my list. There is certainly not a "bad" hole out there and plenty of great holes to go around. The par 3's & 5's were excellent ( but the water holes were a little bland #4 & #15). And the par 4's were great, really a good mix of long and short holes, capes, good elevation changes as well as good flat holes. Lots of strategy, angles, and decision making abound. I thought the opener was very very strong, 1,2,3, then 4 came in and got me a little un-easy after starting off surprisingly well. From the tees the hole looks pretty simple, but really heats up at the green. Really surprised at how built up that back mound needed to be so you could see it from the tee.  5 was a great par 5 that I hacked up with an 8. # 6 was simple and scary, if you loose one left your in big trouble coming back to the green. 7 was the best par 3 in my opinion. 8 Best par 5, love the steepness coming into the green. Really great short 5. 9 is just tough, and long, long long, I hit a great drive and still had 210+ into the green.

10 has a great green and a little harder to pick the line off the tee, more difficult for me then 2 &18... plus the tee was way up on the right side. 11 solid, 12 was really good, not sure what the problem was with the mound? I Like, it dictates the strategy of the hole and messes with you a little bit. 13 was a really good par 3, I didn't notice anything redan-ish there but a great par 3. 14 didn't look too fancy, but it played well. 16 was another good par 3. 17 was outstanding, I loved the fairway contouring, ups and downs, and the green was just wicked. Perfectly fitting for such a short hole down the stretch. 18... I am still trying to figure out if I love it or hate it.....

All in all the course is great, Somewhere between an 8-9 on the 1-10 scale. If I have time I will try and post some pictures later.


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 06:15:32 PM »
Surprised you didn't have more to say about 17. I'd guess that's a 90% hate/10% love hole. Me, I thought it was 100% weird.

All in all, I thought it was a very nice course, but nothing special. Nowhere close to an 8-9 for me, but then again, I haven't seen anywhere near enough courses to say. I'd rather play Lehigh any day of the week, as far as parkland courses go - more interesting holes, better walk.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ryan Farrow

Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 08:41:49 PM »
Surprised you didn't have more to say about 17. I'd guess that's a 90% hate/10% love hole. Me, I thought it was 100% weird.

All in all, I thought it was a very nice course, but nothing special. Nowhere close to an 8-9 for me, but then again, I haven't seen anywhere near enough courses to say. I'd rather play Lehigh any day of the week, as far as parkland courses go - more interesting holes, better walk.

George I'm surprised. The more I hear you comment on the courses I have been to around Western PA the more I feel like we are falling apart.

You seemed to really like Bedford, I didn't care for it, now you say that you don't care for Pete Dye GC..... I'm shocked. I really don't understand how anyone can not like this course, unless, they are really into the whole naturalism thing and a little anti Pete Dye.

George, are you anti Pete?

If you don't even give Pete Dye an 8, what do you give Bedford Springs? Oakmont?

Just FYI I would give Beford about a 5 Pete Dye an 8.5 Oakmont a 9.5


What didn't you like about 17? Just the green?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 08:44:31 PM »
MAN, do I disagree with George.  PDGC is a phenomenal walk!  When you go from #1 green to #2 tee deck and look out over that river, crossing diagonally with you from right to left, framed against the mountains with the fairway mistily revealing itself in the closeness and the distance, you say, DAMN, this is golf.  The holes get better and better.  Paul/Pete actually gives you bail out room on his most penal holes (like #4, the par three with the waterway (get it?  instead of fairway?  never mine...err, mind!)

There is vertical and horizontal movement on every blessed hole and you feel like you are truly being challenged by a professional's course.  It's no surprise that an N-Wide tour event is held there every summer, nor is it a surprise that they shoot under par; in the hands of a master, the course can be vanquished.

I was bitten by #17 green, gritted my teeth, then realized that at the very least, I had stared the dragon down (although it had won that particular encounter.)

I cannot speak more highly of this course.  Of all the ones I have played, it stands out the most in my memory.  Until I play the originals, it is my Cypress, my Pine Valley.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Matt_Ward

Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2010, 09:22:00 PM »
Ryan:

The interesting thing about Pete Dye is that Nemacolin in the Laurel Highlands is really a much lower level style of course than Pete Dye GC in Bridgeport. It's easy for people to see that layout and not be impressed. George mentions Lehigh and the Flynn layout in eastern Pennsy is a fine layout but not in my mind close to the caliber of what you get at Pete Dye GC. I don't disagree with his take on the walk there but the overall ambiance of Pete Dye GC is quite hard to beat.

I agree w you -- the course has a number of solid holes -- plenty of options abounds -- and the player needs to hit the proper shot depending upon the line of play and how it aggressive they choose to be.

Unfortunately, too many people on this site have not played the course and many don't see WV as being a place where top tier golf can be found.

In the time capsule of what Pete Dye has designed this may be the last one in which he really has his fingerprints indelibly associated with a design.

Ryan gives the course a 8-9 -- I don't see a 9 rating but clearly it's got no less than a 7 on the Doak scale for me.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2010, 08:14:48 AM »
Loved Pete Dye GC, liked Lehigh. Very enjoyable walk and very interesting holes. #2 is fantastic as is #5. As for #17, it has a very "interesting" green. I know a lot of my friends hate #17, but I found it challenging to hit the right shot. You can't just go hit your ball and expect it to to just be on the green. You need to think the shot through and hit a good shot. Any wayward shot or one that just was thought through enough will not work.
Mr Hurricane

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2010, 09:48:30 AM »
Surprised you didn't have more to say about 17. I'd guess that's a 90% hate/10% love hole. Me, I thought it was 100% weird.

All in all, I thought it was a very nice course, but nothing special. Nowhere close to an 8-9 for me, but then again, I haven't seen anywhere near enough courses to say. I'd rather play Lehigh any day of the week, as far as parkland courses go - more interesting holes, better walk.

George I'm surprised. The more I hear you comment on the courses I have been to around Western PA the more I feel like we are falling apart.

You seemed to really like Bedford, I didn't care for it, now you say that you don't care for Pete Dye GC..... I'm shocked. I really don't understand how anyone can not like this course, unless, they are really into the whole naturalism thing and a little anti Pete Dye.

George, are you anti Pete?

If you don't even give Pete Dye an 8, what do you give Bedford Springs? Oakmont?

Just FYI I would give Beford about a 5 Pete Dye an 8.5 Oakmont a 9.5


What didn't you like about 17? Just the green?


First off, your memory is incorrect, I've never been to Bedford.

If PDGC is a 8.5, Oakmont is about a 12. :) I'm trying to approach this in a light-hearted manner, but honestly, I don't think PDGC and Oakmont are in remotely the same ballpark.

Am I anti-Pete? Kind of, for many reasons I've detailed in the past. I started a thread after my experiences at PDGC 2 years ago that went into detail, but basically the short answer is I find his courses to be diametrically opposed to my own preferences. That's no knock on him whatsoever, I'm more than sure most people don't agree with my own ideas and preferences. That is also why I don't rate/rank golf courses - way too much subjectivity for my tastes. It'd be like rating paintings or books or food - personal tastes are too involved to say anything meaningful, imho.

PDGC is a really nice golf course. I just don't see much that is special. I did like the par 5s on the front very much, thought the par 5s on the back were good but not particularly noteworthy. I didn't find the par 3s special in any sense - green by water, drop shot green, green past gunk, drop shot green. (That's a little unfair to the 3rd one, I think it was a fun hole I'd enjoy each time I played it, and it reveals my distaste for elevated tees to lower greens on par 3s.)

I will agree with Matt, I think PDGC is much more enjoyable than Mystic Rock. I can even see better golfers preferring PDGC to Lehigh, though for me, Lehigh is much more in line with my own ideas. I will absolutely be seeking out more Flynn courses in the future; Pete, well, hopefully I'll see Casa De Campo, TOC and TPC, don't much care beyond that.

As for 17, I don't have a problem with it, other than it felt contrived. It felt to me like someone was struggling to come up with something dramatic at the end of a round and figured, what the heck, I'll throw in a crazy green. Was it fun? Sure. Was it good golf? Not so sure...

I'm going to have to join Ronald M for a beer and a long talk to figure out what he saw that I didn't... :)

Just for comparison of personal tastes, everyone on here seems to love #2. I greatly preferred #3. Horses for courses, I guess. Diagonal tee shots over water aren't that interesting to me, and I know I am greatly in the minority in that position. And for the record, I didn't put any tee shots in the water.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2010, 10:00:40 AM »
I worked in Clarksburg for Mr. Dye for about a month back in 1985.  I had quit Perry Dye's operation and stopped through Crooked Stick on my way home to ask Pete if there was anything I could do for him, and just then Mr. LaRosa called and said he was going to start things up again, so I went and shaped there for a little while.

The bit of work I did was on the front nine; the back was just cleared but nothing was really shaped yet.  However, Mr. LaRosa made me walk the back nine several times and kept asking what it would take to get the course rated #1 in America.  I told him that like Pine Valley, every hole would have to be an exceptional hole, and I thought that as things stood the weakest hole of the bunch was #14 ... so, he asked me what we could do with it.

So, that "old stone wall" on #14 is not quite as old as John assumed it was ... considering I flagged out where to build it in August, 1985.  But, I guess that was ten years before the back nine opened, so it must have looked aged by then.

P.S.  I have not seen the full 18 holes finished ... I went back for the opening of the front nine back in 1993, en route home from the opening of the original 18 at Stonewall.  And, small world, we sat next to Sen. Robert Byrd for dinner.  Mr. LaRosa was pretty well connected for an old coal miner.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2010, 10:21:30 AM »
After reading Tom's post, I thought for a second as to which hole was 14. I realized that I can go through the entire course by memory quite easily, which is more than I can say about a lot of courses I've played. So maybe I am underselling it a bit.

Still, it strikes me more as special in a setting sense, as opposed to a golf sense. Ron, tell me what you think I'm missing!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Sweeney

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Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2010, 12:31:15 PM »
Geprge: Don't omit The Golf Club outside Columbus, OH if you haven't played it. I would put it ahead of PDGC as a golf experience.

I agree with you and others about the evironment of PDGC. One time I played it in the full golory of autumn and it was as pretty a place as I've ever been.

"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2010, 12:55:46 PM »
Thanks for reminding me about The Golf Club, Jim, that's actually higher on my wish list than any of the other 3 I mentioned.

-----

Hey Matt, if someone were to make me the 'ol 10 split offer between PD and Oakmont, I'd graciously thank the person for the opportunity to play Oakmont 10 times. ;D
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2010, 01:34:20 PM »
It's a silly argument by George to insert Oakmont against the likes of Pete Dye GC -- the Fownes layout is one of the top 4-5 courses in the nation - Pete Dye GC is not at that level but it's sitill possesses plenty of must see items for the Dye fan club group. George, good job in inserting the straw man into the discussion.

Agree that TGC is one of the country's finest courses and a real good indicator of the talent Pete had with such a marvelous finished product.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2010, 01:39:53 PM »
Matt, we now have definitive proof that you do not read others' posts, or that you intentionally mischaracterize them. I did not insert Oakmont into this discussion, Ryan did when he questioned my view of PDGC relative to Oakmont.

READ THE POSTS AND APOLOGIZE LIKE A MAN.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2010, 01:45:27 PM »
George:

Apologize for what -- you continued with the inane desire to link Oakmont and Pete Dye in some sort of 10-round tussle -- no one asked for that -- you simply decided to include it for no purpose. Anyone with real knowledge of the situation knows the greatness of Oakmont but you need to open the eyes just a tad more if you see Lehigh being beyond likes of Pete Dye GC. Methinks you are in love with the walk dimension and simply forgot / ignored the overall design elements that Pete provided for the layout in WV.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2010, 01:56:31 PM »
It's a silly argument by George to insert Oakmont against the likes of Pete Dye GC

This is an exact quote, Matt. Below you will see that it is Ryan who asked me about me feelings abouit PDGC relative to Oakmont and Bedford. I did not insert a damn thing about Oakmont and it's all here in black and white for everyone to see.

You're either a poor reader or a bald faced liar if you cannot see that: which is it?

As for the 10 split comment, that was a joke for your benefit, because you so often ask people about 10 play splits. I'm sorry you didn't understand humor that was targeted directly at you. I thought you would laugh but instead you choose to prevaricate about me.

Surprised you didn't have more to say about 17. I'd guess that's a 90% hate/10% love hole. Me, I thought it was 100% weird.

All in all, I thought it was a very nice course, but nothing special. Nowhere close to an 8-9 for me, but then again, I haven't seen anywhere near enough courses to say. I'd rather play Lehigh any day of the week, as far as parkland courses go - more interesting holes, better walk.

George I'm surprised. The more I hear you comment on the courses I have been to around Western PA the more I feel like we are falling apart.

You seemed to really like Bedford, I didn't care for it, now you say that you don't care for Pete Dye GC..... I'm shocked. I really don't understand how anyone can not like this course, unless, they are really into the whole naturalism thing and a little anti Pete Dye.

George, are you anti Pete?

If you don't even give Pete Dye an 8, what do you give Bedford Springs? Oakmont?

Just FYI I would give Beford about a 5 Pete Dye an 8.5 Oakmont a 9.5


What didn't you like about 17? Just the green?

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2010, 02:31:12 PM »
Matt,

Your manhood is in question. Give it up pardner!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt_Ward

Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2010, 12:40:22 AM »
George:

You are the guy who threw in the 10-round match between Oakmont and Pete Dye. I love Oakmont and have said that a zillion times but the course is Pennsy is not by any means a slam dunk for 10 rounds to zero for the layout in WV. That is simply not so.

You can run behind the self-created poor attempt at humor excuse-- what you said did not come across as humor but as a clear statement of your convictions. If there was any issue of clear clarification you should have said as much when you posted the comment.

Final item -- if you really believe Lehigh has the goods on a place like PBGC then please let me know if you are making "humor" on that point or actually believe it. If it's humor -- it's not really funny -- if you're truly serious then you are all wet -- it's much more than just a "nice" course and if you don't see the "special" qualiities. You say Oakmont and PDGC are not "in the same ballpark -- that's also amusing if I am correct you are making a joke there too.  If you really believe that then you have little real understanding on what Dye did for the layout in WV - it's well done on a range of fronts. The reputation of Oakmont is most secured -- just because the WV is not a ten Doak rated course (my number applied) that doesn't mean to say PDGC is not worth special attention and notice.

Thanks George for

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2010, 10:30:31 AM »
George:

You are the guy who threw in the 10-round match between Oakmont and Pete Dye. I love Oakmont and have said that a zillion times but the course is Pennsy is not by any means a slam dunk for 10 rounds to zero for the layout in WV. That is simply not so.

You can run behind the self-created poor attempt at humor excuse-- what you said did not come across as humor but as a clear statement of your convictions. If there was any issue of clear clarification you should have said as much when you posted the comment.

Final item -- if you really believe Lehigh has the goods on a place like PBGC then please let me know if you are making "humor" on that point or actually believe it. If it's humor -- it's not really funny -- if you're truly serious then you are all wet -- it's much more than just a "nice" course and if you don't see the "special" qualiities. You say Oakmont and PDGC are not "in the same ballpark -- that's also amusing if I am correct you are making a joke there too.  If you really believe that then you have little real understanding on what Dye did for the layout in WV - it's well done on a range of fronts. The reputation of Oakmont is most secured -- just because the WV is not a ten Doak rated course (my number applied) that doesn't mean to say PDGC is not worth special attention and notice.

Thanks George for

Appreciate the non-apology that was called for, it's telling. And I didn't run behind anything, I slapped the biggest of smileys on the post to make it clear to everyone - except you, apparently - that it was a joke. Perhaps your computer does not display smileys.

Anyway, even though it was a joke for your benefit, for me it would be 10-0, no question. I thought you would get a laugh, not go off on it for some reason unbeknownst to me.

Also, the Lehigh comment was not a joke, nor was it an attempt to say it is a better course than PDGC - I don't generally do ratings/rankings, as I've noted many times, even in this thread; I believe they are too subjective to hold much meaning. The Lehigh comment was meant to illustrate to Ryan, who asked me about comparisons to other courses, where my preferences are. I thought it was clear that most of my comments were based on my preferences and my ideas - that's what I addressed in Ryan's question about me being anti-Pete - but sorry if that wasn't clear.

Now that you mention it, I can see the joke with "not in the same ballpark", but I will add, that was an unintended pun.

To me, Oakmont challenges all golfers in the best way possible. Pete Dye GC doesn't. And understand again, that's to me and my ideas of golf course architecture, I fully understand others may disagree.

In fact, I discussed Pete Dye in general with a poster on this site who knows him personally and has spoken with him many times. When I told him how I felt about the Pete Dye courses I've played - Mystic Rock and PDGC - and seen - The Ocean Course - this poster said he thought Pete wouldn't disagree with what I said, and that it might even make him happy.

Hats off to Pete - he has designed many courses that many love and many that offer the utmost challenge to the pros. I just don't get a big thrill from them. Honestly, even if I were much better, I'd probably feel the same way, but I'm open to the possibility that my views might change. That's why I started a thread a couple years ago titled something like "How good of a golfer do you have to be to get Pete Dye?"

I'm sure Pete's not losing any sleep from any of my opinions.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2010, 11:09:00 AM »
George:

It's amusing that people say they don't do ratings but their writings often reveal a bit more than they profess. George, just a thoguht for what it's worth -- playability is certainly part of the courses you often downplay -- Black Mesa is quite playable when people choose the right tees. If someone needs the width of Kansas to play ANY course then the logical and necessary thing to do is head to the practice range or simply walk the course in question and leave the clubs home.

Of course ratings are "subjective," -- but they have weight when someone can mix and merge the various items from a portfolio of played courses that allows someone to see how they have come to such conclusions.

You don't gert the fanfare for what Pete Dye does. In all probability it's tied to your own self admitted lack of golf skill. No doubt that plays a role im your commernts, in my mind. Pete has done various courses since PDGC and many of them in that time frame have turned out far less so than so much of his earlier work. I don't know your personal sample size of Dye-played courses but the WV layout is very well done and at the same time doesn't provide the harsh angles or abruptness that you see with others -- I did mention the hideous nature of the Irish Course at WS as one example. I also don't see all the hoopla tied to the Straits Course there -- no doubt for many the combo of the water (Lake Michigan) and hosting of majors can really obscure the sheer design elements.

Oakmont is a world class layout -- of all people on this site, beyond you, I have always stated my love for the place. It's a treasure to be sure -- but it's no 10-0 over PDGC. George, be sure to separate your attempted humor with what you truly believe., This site is not some sort of quiz show where people should have to discern the differences.

If you can outline specifically what Dye left out a PDGC then I'd be happy to read such comments -- if you think it's harsh and over-the-top please realize, in my mind, you need to see more Dye courses before attaching that label.

Have a good holiday partner ... ;)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2010, 11:41:13 AM »
You don't gert the fanfare for what Pete Dye does. In all probability it's tied to your own self admitted lack of golf skill. No doubt that plays a role im your commernts, in my mind. Pete has done various courses since PDGC and many of them in that time frame have turned out far less so than so much of his earlier work. I don't know your personal sample size of Dye-played courses but the WV layout is very well done and at the same time doesn't provide the harsh angles or abruptness that you see with others...

I absolutely understand why people love Pete Dye, I just don't agree with it. Sure isn't the first time I've disagreed with the majority in many fields. And as I've said a couple times in this thread alone, my PD portfolio encompasses two plays and one see. I am not trying to draw sweeping generalities about Pete, I'm simply commenting on what I've played/seen.

I guess if I were boiling it all down, with my admittedly limited experience playing Pete's courses, there is too much emphasis to me on aerial distance control as a skill. I'm only so-so at that particular skill, but frankly even if I had it in spades, I just don't find it that compelling. If I'm ranking decisions on a golf course, and the questions that arise from them, "What's my yardage?" is well down the list. That's certainly not all that Pete asks, not by a long shot, but it's far too prevalent for my tastes.

That's why I prefer #3 to #2 at Pete Dye GC, for instance. Everyone raves over diagonal tee shots, particularly ones over water, but to me, it's seen one, seen 'em all... As other noted posters on here have indicated, the better player always leaves plenty of room for error, it's a challenge that mostly only challenges the lesser golfer (and in my cynical opinion, that is something the better golfer craves in abundance - most everyone seems to want a course that is a sufficient challenge for themselves and just a bit too much for anyone not quite as good as them). I'd call it a dumb blond challenge. And I generally don't have trouble making those carries, my own particular issue is not length or carry distances, it is side to side. I don't need Kansas, merely the ability to find my ball and play it (something Oakmont offers in abundance, incidentally, even if the resulting play is exceptionally difficult).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye Club - Long Description
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2010, 11:49:30 AM »
Matt,
Honestly, my knocks on PDGC had nothing to do with design and everything to do with maintenance.  I played during a fairly dry period.  We stayed on property in a very nice rental.  Very nice!

We could open the windows at night and just listen to nature and silence.  However, I heard sprinklers running all night.

Now, I had played the day before and the course was very soggy.  The thought of putting on more water made no sense to me.  This amateur thought the super was seriously overwatering.

In Ran's review of Beechtree, he notes how maintenance is key.  He wrote, "In the ownerJames Knott and Green Keeper Russ Davis at Beechtree,Renaissance Golf Design finally found people who understood their design philosophy and how each hole was meant to play. Doak’s long held beliefs in minimal architecture and getting the most from the subtle nuances of the land would be allowed to shine through finally."

To summarize, my sole issue with PDGC was that the staff failed to let Mr. Dye's design intents come to life.  A bit of brown out there would do a world of good.