[DT]

I just returned from a two night stay at Spanish Bay (company paying). Peeble had been booked out for months, so we played Spanish Bay. It sure was pretty but they have fences all around environmentally sensitive areas. Even worse to me was the tees - we could either play it at 6,100 or 6,800 yards with nothing in between. There were two mid -handicaps in our group so we played the shorter tees. However, the challenge was seriously impaired at that length. Is the lack of a mid set of tees the architects fault or the resorts? Either way, sobody has dropped the ball, which is too bad, given the setting.

[Ran Morrissett]

I agree with you - Spanish Bay is a magic place but somehow the course set-up seems wrong. I don't know why they don't create some tees around the 6450 mark. Overall, it still seems that they need wider fairways. A Coore/Crenshaw or a Doak would have built fairways 30% wider I imagine to 1. accommodate the resort traffic and 2. allow for the wind. Even should I be playing well, I don't even think about placing the ball on one side of the fairway or the other - I'm just glad to hit it (which gets boring). I wonder in the end if they had enough property to make a great course or were they caught 20 acres or so short?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I was there today having breakfast with a member of an archtectural firm discussing how much of the issues are design driven versus management and maintenance. He felt the original design called for wider fairways, fescue and firm conditions. He felt the Pebble management and maintenace team took out the fescue and went to the green green course we see today. Both of us feel Spanish Bay is a huge missed opportunity.

[Paul Richards]

Tiger said:

> spanish bay is a huge missed opportunity


You hit the nail on the head, Tiger.

 

[Bob_Huntley]

Don't get me started on Spanish Bay.

A disused sand pit with the opportunity to create a Cypress Point from scratch.

A combination of R.T.Jones Jnr., Sandy Tatum and Tom Watson. What did we get? A constricted  course with environmentally sensitive areas that were completely man made and made no sense whatsoever. The site is one of the most beautiful that one can imagine and my good friend, Thoams of Naccarato had an an epiphany there. Apart from that, this was one of the great cock-ups of golf course architecture ever.

Bob

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sir Robert, I couldn't agree more. It is a lost opportunity. However, I do think the land itself as the perfect place for my epiphany. I even think my deer would probably agree!

Tiger,
If you are still there with him, send JS my best. (I'm assuming that yu were there with him!)

[Doug Wright]

Played there with my best man on the morning of my wedding day in 1991. No epiphanies, but I'm still married 15 years later so I have fond memories of Spanish Bay...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

What day was it in 1991?

Like me, at least you got to experience the course in fescue as it was meant to be played.

[Adam Clayman]

Just to illustrate how sophisticated these minions are, the majority of the golfing world would gladly play Spanish Bay, and not notice one iota of crap.

[ForkaB]

What day was it in 1991?

Like me, at least you got to experience the course in fescue as it was meant to be played.

Tommy

I played it a couple of times just after it opened and the fescue was in full "bloom" and it was still crap.  In fact, part of the reason for its crapness was the fescue, which was a miscontrued abomination.  It was good in theory, but not good in practice.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Adam..
Not so sure about that...I played there with my brother in law...who has very little if any architectural sophistication...and even he was tired of the lateral hazards,no middle tees..and that god awful finishing hole!

But what an opportunity missed.
Great land..great vistas..great hotel..what a pity

[Adam Clayman]

From today's Shaq site

many of the finest courses are definitely ugly. They are in the main flat; there is nothing distinctive to the eye; they are squeezed within the embrace of houses, roads and railways’ they may have their fascinations when they are being played over, but their superficial charms are notably few; they are neither obtrusive nor in any sense spectacular. Normally speaking, they are to be counted among nature’s ugly ducklings.   H.N. WETHERED

MWP,
I suppose I might get tired of all the OB at St. Andrews, too. Especially if I played a course that was too long and hard for me. Perpetuating the myth that there are NO middle tees at Spanish Bay, is fascinating. Just because the choice is 6200 or 6700 yards, doesn't mean that people should listen to their egos and play the blue tees. There are back, middle, and forward tees at SB.

I won't say that SB is the greatest and surely if the current reports of a maintenance meld that is ill-fitting, are true, it's a shame, a function of the Pat Jones mass market ideology. But, to disparage SB the way some do, is over-the-top and misleading.

[Doug Wright]

What day was it in 1991?

Like me, at least you got to experience the course in fescue as it was meant to be played.

Tommy,

May 18 (I'd better remember that date... )

I thought the fescue was great at the time, the golf course quite good with some solid par 4s (a short one on early on the front, a longer par 4 on the back (not #10)), a couple decent mid-length par 3s along the shore and the downhill par 5 on the back come to mind. I remember the "native OB" but don't recall it being horrible--maybe there's more of it now.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Adam,
I actually quite like Spanish Bay..I have always played well there, and have the luxury of hitting a rather straight tee ball.
I find a couple of the greens rather too severe, but actually like the lay out.
As already stated the last hole is utter crap, but that aside I would play there anytime I was given the chance.

That does not however change the fact that it is nowhere near as good as it could have been...I truly think that most on this website could have produced a finished product that was more resort friendly than what currently exists.

[Tom Huckaby]

The snobbishness of this forum lately has me really scratching my head.  I guess I should be used to it by now...

But man, listen to Adam Clayman here.

Sure, I guess this course could have been more, could have been better.

But if this is crap, I'm Oprah Winfrey.

You guys REALLY need to play some munis.

Ask 100 golfers around here about Spanish Bay and 95 at least will say they loved it.

It really is time for a reality check in here.  One round at KP-VI must take place at Santa Teresa, so you guys really can see how good you have it.

 

[ForkaB]

The snobbishness of this forum lately has me really scratching my head.  I guess I should be used to it by now...

But man, listen to Adam Clayman here.

Sure, I guess this course could have been more, could have been better.

But if this is crap, I'm Oprah Winfrey.

You guys REALLY need to play some munis.

Ask 100 golfers around here about Spanish Bay and 95 at least will say they loved it.

It really is time for a reality check in here.  One round at KP-VI must take place at Santa Teresa, so you guys really can see how good you have it.

 

Yo Winfrey (as Dubya would say)

I used the word "crap" but only in the context of how the fescue "played" in 1985-6.  Did you play it in those days, Oprah, or were you stillin nappies?

I last played it in 2001 and it was not crap, just tremendously disappointing.  As Bob H said, in effect, a great opportunity missed through poor planning and execution.  Unforgiveable.

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich:

Understood re the context of the "crap" comment specifically.  My bad there.  This wasn't meant to be directed at you specifically, but rather then large volume of anti-SB sentiment that has been expressed in this thread and many times previously.

So my take on the course does not change.  Speculate all one will on what might have been, but if that's a bad golf course as it sits there today, one is a snob.  

And yes, I played it almost certainly BEFORE you.  I was there prior to its opening.  But nice try, you codger!

 

[Evan_Green]

A suggestion if one doesnt want to play Spanish Bay at 6100 or 6800:

Alternate holes from the back tees and the middle tees - e.g. play #1 from the middle tees, #2 from the back tees, #3 from the middle tees... etc...

The result: a 6400-6500 course

[Scott_Burroughs]

Even worse to me was the tees - we could either play it at 6,100 or 6,800 yards with nothing in between.

I don't know why they don't create some tees around the 6450 mark.

From today's Shaq site
Just because the choice is 6200 or 6700 yards, doesn't mean that people should listen to their egos and play the blue tees. There are back, middle, and forward tees at SB.

Adam,

How did 6100 or 6800 from the first post become 6200 or 6700?  700 yards is a big difference, but you changed the numbers to make it 500.

Regardless, I know you were a long time resident and also a caddie in the area, but Ran and DT did get their wish for an additional set of tees at SB.  I played there in late April this year, and the 3 sets of non-forward tees are 6821, 6422, and 6043 yards.


I felt the same as some above, that the course is still quite fun, but it could have been much better.  I don't know how much more width could have been incorporated (attached/double fairways wouldn't go over well in the resort/litigation environment, I suppose) given the amount of land used, but there would have been plenty of room for it if they hadn't built the hotel and housing on the property.  If it were just a clubhouse like Spyglass, there would have been plenty of room.

As for the maintenance meld, I played there not long after the wettest winter/early spring ever (or something close to it), and it was surprisingly firm in many spots (not Hoylake, but there was some roll).  They were actually watering first thing in the morning (though I thought it unnecessary, but what do I know about keeping the grass?).  

[Paul Richards]

Tom

>But if this is crap, I'm Oprah Winfrey.

>You guys REALLY need to play some munis.


I can think of a 1/2 dozen muni's I'd rather play than Spanish Bay.

Especially when you consider the price difference!!  

 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

   Oprah....I dont care who you are that last hole really is crap

But remember I also said I actually said I liked the course overall.

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul:

OK, if we factor in price, then I can live with anyone calling SB crap.  It is WAY overpriced for sure.

But that wasn't my issue here.

There is no way on god's green earth that SB is inferior in any way to any muni within 500 miles of it.  I know, I've played them all.  OK, if you want to put the greatest munis nationwide in this conversation, hell I could live with some being called better than SB.

But this really isn't the point either.

The point is this:  SB is a pretty damn good golf course, very beautiful, annoying in some places with the overuse of ESAs, but generally very fun.  A late afternoon round there with the bagpipes playing can be pretty darn inspiring.

Come on out - let's play SJ Muni in the morning and SB in the pm.  Then you can tell me all about how awful SB is.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

  Oprah....I dont care who you are that last hole really is crap

But remember I also said I actually said I liked the course overall.

MWP - understood.  And while I wouldn't call 18 crap, I will say it would be nice if they cut the area on the left of the hazard up by the green as fairway, as was the intent.

TH

[Paul Richards]

My main issue with Spanish Bay (besides the outrageous price  )  is that they advertise it and market it as a links course, and then keep it green and lush.

When I paid my fare there, I was hoping for a 'Hoylake-West'.  Instead I got an overwatered, non-links experience.

And overrated course as well.

 

[Adam Clayman]

Paul Richards-
Could you please detail the architecture at SB that you find so poor? Please be as spedcific as possible.

Scott, The difference is easy, I didnt look at the numbers Ran posted, I just remembered them incorrectly, or rounded them up and down. You making a point over it, seems odd, especially since you report they have adjusted their numbers on the scorecard. So it is moot. But did they really alter the Golf course? I doubt it. Either way the point is, most guests who play the blue tees had better be good ballstrikers and know themselves and the course, well enough. As BV intimates, they likely are not.

I'm sure all the employees who work there, from chambermaids to caddies, do not feel an opportunity was lost, but rather the opposite.

To assume and expect that Marvin Davis cared about the GCA , in the 1980's, to the extent that we do here on GCA today, is naive.

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