[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

The cliffs look nice, and I even applaud Rees for moving a few greens closer to the cliffs, but has anyone seen a putt break more than 6 inches?

Watching pros lip out tapped putts from 12 feet that broke 1 inch instead of the estimated 2 is pretty close to my idea of torture.

This doesn't seem like a question, it seems like a statement.

If I go to hell, it will be an endless stream of flat greens stimping out at 14.....

This too doesn't seem like a question, but a statement.

Maybe you should reread your posts before hitting the post button to make sure you've typed what you meant

You didn't just ask a simple question, you followed with two difinitive statements.

And, I never said that you couldn't ask a question, I only asked how you would evaluate the answer if you've never personally seen the golf course.

You don't mind giving me heat on an issue, and I've never told you to back off, so you'll just have to take some of your own medicine, distasteful as it may be.

It would seem hard to believe that you weren't about to embark upon a "bash" Torrey Pines thread.

Only when you were pressed to compare Torrey Pines's greens to Bethpage's or GCGC's did you admit that you had never set foot on Torrey Pines, and when you couple that with the title of your thread, "Does Torrey Pines possess the most boring greens in American golf ?"  I don't think it's a stretch to think you were on a mission to "bash" Torrey Pines, their greens and eventually Rees.

[George Pazin]

  (that is me biting my tongue)

Everyone else out there can read this thread and see where I asked questions. I asked them in the title to the thread, I asked them after my compliment to Rees, I explained my question was based on observation. Adding a statement about my disdain for flat greens does not preclude the question. The last part was a joke - for once I left off the smiley because I thought it was so obviously even the slowest reader would understand - guess I was wrong.

If I were serious, I would say "If I go the hell, it will be an endless cross examination of ridiculous questions in a Pat Mucci manner."

Don't tell me how I should post.

I'm done arguing this unless anyone else would care to ddress the actual thread question. This has been the most disappointing threadjack I have ever encountered in my 4+ years on this site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

(that is me biting my tongue)

Everyone else out there can read this thread and see where I asked questions. I asked them in the title to the thread, I asked them after my compliment to Rees, I explained my question was based on observation. Adding a statement about my disdain for flat greens does not preclude the question. The last part was a joke - for once I left off the smiley because I thought it was so obviously even the slowest reader would understand - guess I was wrong.

If I were serious, I would say "If I go the hell, it will be an endless cross examination of ridiculous questions in a Pat Mucci manner."

Don't tell me how I should post.

I didn't, but if you make definitive statements, absent first hand experience, be prepared to support your position

I'm done arguing this unless anyone else would care to ddress the actual thread question. This has been the most disappointing threadjack I have ever encountered in my 4+ years on this site.

1-800 WHINE

[JakaB]

George,

I stayed out of this thread because I thought you really did not have a point and were just trying to impress someone with a typical bash of Torrey Pines.   There was never a thread to jack and I'm sure you banked your points.   There is not a soul in 49 states that would not die to have a facility exaclty like Torrey near them...What you are doing is bad for golf, bad for this site and bad for people who love golf their whole lives and just want to play on an US Open venue without having to kiss some ass.   When I went to KPI I could get no takers from this site to join me because of ignorance much like yours....what is funny is that the same people who have convinced you that it is a waste of a great site have not played the course either....Pat Mucci is just trying to save you from yourself.   Of all the courses I have ever played based on cost, availability of tee times, people you will meet and compete against at a facility, test, tradition and fun to play...I would put Torrey a strong number 1.

[THuckaby2]

JakaB:

I sure as hell have nothing against Torrey myself, either how it was or is (though I haven't played it post-renovation).  It was home to me for a brief shining period in my life, and I loved every round there, both North and South.

I just have to take exception to one thing you said:  if you include availability of tee-times, then no way it's number 1, even going against private clubs.  Man one has a better chance getting on La Jolla CC than Torrey most of the time.  A bigger pain in the ass to get a tee-time I surely have never faced... and I was a San Diego resident during that brief shining camelot...  

Of course I've never been to Bethpage.

But I guess your point there is it IS public and thus IS possible.  OK, fine.  I just read that part and winced, though!

As for the greens now, I have no idea, haven't seen them.  They sure as hell always used to have a lot of slope though... not so much internal contours, but enough going toward the ocean so that no putt was ever easy.

Now as for TKPI, well... I had to go home!  I would have played there with you guys for sure... but duty called.

TH

[George Pazin]

Well, I guess I have no choice but to respond:

Patrick -

Your display on this thread has been nothing short of disgusting, IMO. I started the thread with an admittedly strong statement, which included actual praise for Rees. I clarified that my statements were based on observations from watching the telecast on TV. If you choose to disagree with my observation, as others have, have the guts to address them. Instead you have chosen to attack me & insinuate that I have some sort of personal agenda against Rees Jones. With each explanation from me as to my observations, you chose to condescendingly insult me, as though you are somehow the paragon of decorum and reason on this site. When I asked to you stop and allow others to comment on my opinion, you continued to insult me and instruct me as to how I should post, including your bogus 1-800 WHINE comment. I am frankly disgusted by this display & I hope others are, too - it is far worse than anything like Tiger wearing a t shirt at a Tour event. I would hope that I have earned some respect through my contributions to this site, something you have not shown me in the least with your personal insult, which never once addressed my observation. If my observation is wrong, address that like a man, don't hide behind twisting insults.

JakaB -

I am incredibly disappointed in you as well. I never once indicated that TP N&S were a bad facility. I specifically addressed the greens and the lack of movement that I observed through watching the putts. If my opinion is wrong, address that, as others have. You don't see me insulting the various people who told me my observations were wrong, based on their personal direct experience, do you? Several posters indicated to me that their experience indicated I was wrong - fine, I'll have to rely on that, till I get out there. But to endorse Pat's insults is really disappointing.

I have, on many occasions when meeting people from the site, told them what a wonderful time I had at lunch with Pat at Lehigh and that he is a terrific guy in person. It is very disppointing to me that he would choose to twist my words in such a manner as to imply that I have some sort of agenda against Rees, particularly in light of the fact that I complimented Rees in moving some of the greens closer to the cliffs. I have no idea if the putts I saw were on original greens, modified greens, whatever.

I asked a simple question and for that I receive insults from Patrick & now you that I somehow am hurting golf by asking this simple question. This is a discussion forum, is it not?

On occasion when I have stepped over the line when addressing someone's point, I have apologized to them. I expect nothing less from the both of you, and yet don't really expect it from either.

[T_MacWood]

JohnK
"What you are doing is bad for golf, bad for this site..."
I'm glad to hear you are looking out for whats good for the game and good for this site.

Pat
Speeking of Rees...what do you believe are his greatest strengths as a designer?

[A_Clay_Man]

So George, Wouldth you sayth he (pat) protethtest too much?

[JakaB]

Tom,

I had originally booked an early tee time at Torrey...more than a week in advance at a premium...but when I got no takers I cancelled that and walked up...I'm sure this was prekaypee and waited an hour before I was paired with three other people.   Maybe it is just during the week but everyone else I have spoken to from the midwest just goes up and signs the sheet and waits gets out easily.   I don't know how hard it is for local buddies to get a foresome together during a prime time....Maybe it would be clearer if I said it would be my number one course to have within a 60 mile radius or me for the opportunity to play 10 times a year or just hang out and find a game.   note: I have not played Bethpage Black and the US Open deal really trumps alot of stuff for me...I feel dirty saying this but I kinda dig the Buick too.

Are there any other real status publics that cheap in the country....Bethpage, Torrey, blank....a couple of nots..

Pinehurst
Bandon
Pebble
World Woods
Pasa...close
Pine Meadow

[Sven Bergstrøm]

Dissä Thræd remindee høw thingee vhen vhite persøn cällee bläck persøn "N" vørd. Da bläckmän ræctee wiciøusly tøwärdee vhitemän, änd he väntee tu sleep vith hy vømän før usee vørd, yet vhen bälckmän vith hy buddyee, he usee "N" vørd vithøut fäil inda describee them. Mr. Mucci änd Mr. Hurst like Bläckmen, ønly Me noo knøw vhät tu cäll them becäusa their äffiliäshunee tu usee "R" vørd.

Yust me täke, but vhät Me knøw yörk smörk görk!

[JakaB]

George,

If you were not influenced in your opinion by any of the previous posts you have read on this site concerning either Rees or Torrey Pines...and only titled your thread in such a negative, over the top manner because of what you had seen on TV....then I apologize and retract my statement that you were trying to impress someone or gain favor with your post....we all want to be liked and there is not anything wrong with that....we just need to be careful if our hates and stereotypes might influence an innocent.   If I would have missed my round at Torrey because of something someone said about the course that had never seen it...or the other affordable public US Open venue in the country....I would have felt cheated.  You don't want to cheat anybody now do you.

[Lou_Duran]

Jak,

You may recall that I too played on that beautiful Thursday in 2002, and had a wonderful time.  Had you invited me to join you during your BarneyF phase, I would have been pleased.  But you didn't and I too went through the walk-up list, though I had called the pro, park & rec. director, and others to arrange the round.  It was not terribly hard for me to get on, though it did take an hour or so, and it was not cheap either.

I strongly disagree with George's post about the greens on the South course which I thought were considerably better bunkered and more challenging than what was there before.  I think that for a seaside course, that they had plenty of pitch and movement to challenge anyone.  If the US Open is played in firm, fast conditions, and the wind blows, well, good luck.  And if they leave the rough as I encountered it, ouch!

On the other hand, I don't hold the course anywhere in as high regard as you apparenlty do.  Like Tommy, the experience of that site, the environment, is so uplifting that one can overlook the course's numerous shortcomings with relative ease.  Not that I could do better than Bell or Jones, but it seems that such a fantastic site was not utilized to its full potential.

What did strike me about the renovated TP-S is how little it seemed changed for a $3.5MM capital expenditure.  It is certainly longer, and some greens were moved closer to the natural hazards. but at $50m per green, that's less than $1mm.

As luck would have it, I saw Rees Jones later that fall and asked him about the project.  My recollection is that he said that the budget included a number of things that cannot be easily seen, primarily drainage and, I think, irrigation.  Apparently, the make-over was more subtle and not nearly as drastic as the work at the Black (which had been allowed to deteriorate for many years).

BTW, including aesthetic factors, which course did you like best, Barona or TP-S?  Which is the better course?  If I had to play just one all the time, I would probably select Barona.  If I could only play one once again, I would choose TP-S.  And if I could play 10 rounds at those two and Maderas, I would probably go 4 at Barona and 3 each at Maderas and TP-S.

 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

JakaB, John K, whatever,
How soon you forget!

I was the one that told you to go out there and put your name in and forego using that other time, remember?

Or is your memory that fleeting?

Just to let everyone know, I have not criticized Rees one bit in this thread, and I fail to see anyone else really doing the same other then offering an opinion of the owrk they have seen. the course Rees Jones took and REMODELED is a far improvement over the course that once existed there--that much is for sure.

As another who has played Torrey Pines North and South countless times, I can attest that this is one of the finer places place to play golf in the evening--its just that there has never been much of a golf course there ever, and I think it will always be that way. I can understand why John liked it so, being the Mid-Westerner that he is, one of many that seemingly infect the course during the winter months. Who could blame them!

But, I look at Torrey Pines to be much like all of San Diego Golf, vastly over-rated and over-publicized. There just isn't that many good to great golf courses there, and while that is changing with Barona, Santa Luz (a good Rees Jones course) Crosby Club, etc. (Do not include the Bridges in this list of courses) It has a long way to go considering that at one time, Coronado Island could be considered the most hospitable links-like/sandy waste environment that never really happened.

George, I thought your thread was a good one with tone of bias or deceit. It's unfortunate that it was taken in such a reactionary tone.

[George Pazin]

Of course I don't want to cheat anyone. If anything, I view this criticism as encouraging others to not build courses with what appear to be boring greens (judging by the lack of break).

Also, re: Rees. I honestly think the primary factor in the greens contour is probably with the original architect's design. I specifically complimented Rees in my opening post in the hopes that people wouldn't read this as a condemnation of Rees. But I don't really care who is to blame, if anyone.

I asked a simple pointed question (sorry, didn't realize everything had to be phrased in a PC fashion, I'd have thought you'd support that notion, JakaB) based on the observation of putts on TV that some people chose to address & one poster chose to deflect into some sort of personal attack on me, because he incorrectly inferred that I was attacking Rees for building boring greens.

Look at Lou's posts - he strongly disagrees with me & specifically addressed my points. He didn't say that he thinks I have some sort of agenda against Rees or that I'm trying to score brownie points with those who don't particularly care for TP (even if he really thinks that, he has the common courtesy to actually answer the question and not attack me personally).

[Dan Kelly]

Well, I guess I have no choice but to respond:

Patrick -

Your display on this thread has been nothing short of disgusting, IMO. I started the thread with an admittedly strong statement, which included actual praise for Rees. I clarified that my statements were based on observations from watching the telecast on TV. If you choose to disagree with my observation, as others have, have the guts to address them. Instead you have chosen to attack me & insinuate that I have some sort of personal agenda against Rees Jones. With each explanation from me as to my observations, you chose to condescendingly insult me, as though you are somehow the paragon of decorum and reason on this site. When I asked to you stop and allow others to comment on my opinion, you continued to insult me and instruct me as to how I should post, including your bogus 1-800 WHINE comment. I am frankly disgusted by this display & I hope others are, too - it is far worse than anything like Tiger wearing a t shirt at a Tour event. I would hope that I have earned some respect through my contributions to this site, something you have not shown me in the least with your personal insult, which never once addressed my observation. If my observation is wrong, address that like a man, don't hide behind twisting insults.

JakaB -

I am incredibly disappointed in you as well. I never once indicated that TP N&S were a bad facility. I specifically addressed the greens and the lack of movement that I observed through watching the putts. If my opinion is wrong, address that, as others have. You don't see me insulting the various people who told me my observations were wrong, based on their personal direct experience, do you? Several posters indicated to me that their experience indicated I was wrong - fine, I'll have to rely on that, till I get out there. But to endorse Pat's insults is really disappointing.

I have, on many occasions when meeting people from the site, told them what a wonderful time I had at lunch with Pat at Lehigh and that he is a terrific guy in person. It is very disppointing to me that he would choose to twist my words in such a manner as to imply that I have some sort of agenda against Rees, particularly in light of the fact that I complimented Rees in moving some of the greens closer to the cliffs. I have no idea if the putts I saw were on original greens, modified greens, whatever.

I asked a simple question and for that I receive insults from Patrick & now you that I somehow am hurting golf by asking this simple question. This is a discussion forum, is it not?

On occasion when I have stepped over the line when addressing someone's point, I have apologized to them. I expect nothing less from the both of you, and yet don't really expect it from either.

Hear, hear! Hear, hear!

I have a suggestion for the group:

How about if we don't presume bad faith -- until that bad faith becomes self-evident? It was surely not self-evident to me -- and remains not self-evident to me -- that George Pazin had any bad-faith ulterior motive (i.e., to *bash* Rees Jones -- either generally, or specifically for his work at Torrey Pines) when he started this thread.

I thought he said, and quite plainly: Those greens he saw on TV looked dull, to him, like the greens he'd envision at Hell G.C. -- fast and flat, as evidenced by the minuscule breaks in the various putts he saw. The title of his thread -- a somewhat provocative title, I'll grant you -- asked if all 36 of the greens at Torrey Pines were like that.

I presumed that -- the title of his thread being a question, with a question mark at the end -- he was looking for answers.

Patrick Mucci apparently presumed that the question in his title was a rhetorical question -- driven by an anti-Rees agenda.

I have a question for Mr. Mucci: Are all of the questions you ask in your thread titles rhetorical questions?

P.S., in case anyone wonders: I have not played Torrey Pines, North or South. As far as I know, I have never played a Rees Jones course -- unless you count the revised Hazeltine as his. I have never met Patrick Mucci, JakaB, George Pazin or Rees Jones. Or Sven Bergstrom, either (so far as I know).

[A_Clay_Man]

I have never golf Pinehurst #2, but from the pictures and Tv, I'd say Torrey Pines could've easily fit that bill, stylewise, as a site.

How wrong am I?

[JakaB]

Of course I don't want to cheat anyone. If anything, I view this criticism as encouraging others to not build courses with what appear to be boring greens (judging by the lack of break).

My God George...I am sorry.  I had never considered anybody who designed or built courses gave a shit about what we say.  I am absolutely shocked and will choose my future words accordingly.

[George Pazin]

Wow, that might be the most sarcastic post in the history of GCA - way to go!

[JakaB]

George,

I am really shell shocked...I spend most holidays with a practicing architect and have never once suggested or discussed how or why he could improve his craft....and I've known this guy my whole life.   The very last thing I ever thought we were doing on this site was educating or encouraging architects...in all seriousness it never crossed my mind.   Hell, I thought we were just having a little fun with an interesting topic...and I think it would be dangerous to think otherwise.

[George Pazin]

And yet somehow I am damaging golf by asking a question about boring greens?

Give me a break.

I wouldn't presume to tell any architect how to do his craft, or how to improve it. What I would do is indicate my preference for interesting contours or interesting inclines that make golf more interesting. As long as everyone keeps telling the architects that long is great and flat but fast is great, why would you think any of them would want to do otherwise, other than the perceived iconoclasts who do their own thing?

How disingenuous can you be? I ask a question and you come back at me with that? You, the founder of the "you guys are stupid..." movement in golf?

[Jeff Fortson]

Hey guys Bob Marley just contacted me from the dead.  He wants you all to pass this around and chill out.  Ok 'mon?




Jeff F.


P.S.  I grew up in So cal and played Torrey Pines many times.  I would put the South Course at about #200 on my list of desired courses to play, right behind the 9-hole Claremont Golf Course.  Sorry JakaB, the course is the most over-rated course in So Cal.  Matter of fact, if you took the Pacific Ocean away the course would go bankrupt. Reestoration or not, the place makes me feel as if I am participating in the Batan Death March.


P.S. P.S.   Is there any way I can come to the Baltusrol meeting.  It might turn into the "Thrilla' in Baltusrol" or the "Rumble at the 'Rol"

[JakaB]

George,

I don't back away from the statement that you guys are stupid...on many, many fronts.  I never started a thread saying architects are stupid and they could learn from us.

Jeff,

The course is built for the modern game played with modern equipment...last night someone in real life said those bunkers must be 280 to carry...I think more like 315....How can a professional like yourself not appreciate architecture that reflects the times in which it was created.....bitch all you want about what could be, should be and isn't....I think the bunker placement, length and green contour balance each other out in a way a cursory observation can not grasp....I didn't even respond to Clayman's thought that the greens at the deuce would fit the property....the greens at the deuce fit the deuce just like the length at TPS fits the length at TPS...simple enough...

[Jeff Fortson]

JakaB,

I'm not going to get sucked into this vacuum of hate going on right now but I will offer this much...

I find TPS to have the most uninteresting green complexes in allof So Cal.  Plus, even being a "professional" and averaging about 280-285 off the tee, I find the endless bash-fest of murdering driver off every tee to be one dimensional and straight-up "BORING".  

I like courses that have some guts and length.  However, this course is all length, no guts.  Plus, for the general public, the 6-hour round tends to get on my nerves.


Jeff F.


P.S.  Please don't tell me you like the "water-feature" (a.k.a. the lake) on #18.  What a disgusting finish.

[JakaB]

Jeff,

This is not a hate fest...I doandid hate the water feature on 18....it really surprised me when I saw some yellow stakes up there from the fairway...I didn't know it existed when I played and didn't take a scorecard with me....It makes poor eye candy but seems to have some strategic value.

Oh yeah...arn't you one of the many that begs to see the pros hit long irons until this week every year...and if they ain't hitting long irons it ain't a bash fest.   I think 14 is one of the greatest short par fours I have ever played...if you havn't seen the new green in person and seen the sky line effect first hand with a club in your hands...give me a break and just believe me.

[George Pazin]

Jax -

If that's what you take away from my posts, fine. All too often people defend all architects with "He just gave the client what he wanted" or "He's just giving the people what they want." Well, boring greens are not what I want and I'm not afraid to say it, no matter what you & Pat say. If they're not boring, great, so much the better for everyone who golfs there. That's partly why I asked the question.

-----

As I watch today, I continue to be impressed with the greens that are perched near the cliffs. I saw Pernice (I think) hit a little bump & run at a skyline green that looked pretty damn cool. Also, as I type this, Jesper is next to the 4th green on the SC and it looks to have to contour - but he just hit his greenside recovery & it didn't do much. Neither did the putt.

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