Grounds for Golf II

[Lou_Duran]

THREE MID-LENGTH PAR 3s, DIFFERENT TERRAINS, PROXIMATE AREA



MID-LENGTH, TEE-GREEN NEAR SAME GRADE



SAME AS ABOVE



SHORTISH HOLE, LONG GREEN

[RJ_Daley]

I don't know what you are asking here, if anything  Lou, but I find the first pic most appealing.  I really like it's simplicity of presentation yet the nose in the foregreen guarding the front pin and making a bounding run in an uncertainty, and what appears to be two disticnt pins at back right and back left.  The only thing I can't tell from the pic, is how room is left behind the green?  I'd like to see a 2-3 fot deep chipping swale of at least 12 yards behind there before the rocky hard scrabble hill. Do you think that would be too dumbed down?

[Brian Phillips]

Lou,

Do yo think your first hole looks better with or without the bunkers?

Without..


Brian

[Lou_Duran]

Brian,

I like the hole as is.  The hole is well protected by the wind including the possibility of it swirling in the canyon near the green, the scruffy terrain, and a great amount of movement in the green and surrounds.

Dick,

I am just putting up some pictures of three memorable short holes in different terrain in NM.  On the first one, there is some room at the back of the green, below green level, though it is irregular and to the best of my recollection, considerably less than 12 yards from most angles.

The holes are, from top to bottom:

Black Mesa, #11, 170 yards

Las Campanas-Sunset, /#11 (I think), around 190 yards

Paa-ko Ridge, #4, around 180 yards

[THuckaby2]

Lou:

I think the first one is #4 at Black Mesa, isn't it?

I like all three of these holes (basing just on pic for the 2nd one), btw - surprise, surprise.

 

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Tom,

You could be right.  Perhaps Brad Swanson or Adam Clayman can chime-in.  I do recall that #11 seemed to be more in the box canyon, but the front and shelf on the picture reminds me of 11.  In any event, I liked the 3s at BM a lot, even the quirky last one over water (which really did not come into play all that much).

I am not sure about the # of the second picture, other than I really liked the natural green site and the large diagonal arroyo guarding it, and a challenging green on top of that.

I have mixed feelings about #4 at Paa-ko.  It is certainly unusual being so long and large for a relatively short hole.  What would you guess, a 4 or 5 iron difference from front to back?  Lots of roll to that green.

[THuckaby2]

Lou:

I'm pretty sure it is #4 at BM - just went to the web site and the pic of 11 seems to be enough to confirm this.  No hassle though, similar looks, both great holes.

Re #4 at Paa-Ko, it was my least fave of the par 3's there - the green is just a bit too much for me.  I'd say 5 clubs from front to back at least - maybe 6.  Combine that with all the tiers and well... like I say, it's just a bit too much.  But I still enjoyed playing the hole, and it is pretty, so that's ok by me.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Lou- Huck is correct. That is #4 at BM. And if I am not mistaken that is #3 on Sunset.

 Om BM's The cader on the left obscures the left half of the green from the one teeing ground left of the cart path. Very cool.

Dick, you continue to surprise. When I saw this hole for the first time I thought to myself "Dick Daley would hate this" mostly because of your affinity for rocks near putting surfaces. Also, There is some room not only behind the left side but also along the leftside. A shallow draw just as you described. I was in that draw at the gca outing and elected to putt to the back left pin. It worked well. As I recalll, Craig E. made 2 here, first time thru.

Cool how the Paa ko ridge pic almost resembles a Biarritz

[Lou_Duran]

Does someone have a picture of #11?  My comments to Dick were based on my recollections of #11.

Concerning Sunset, I thought that the par 3 in question was later in the round.  Perhaps Bill McBride can opine.

The Paa-ko Ridge green does have a Biarritz look, though as I recall, the second part of the green is slightly convex.

I guess I am either getting too old or have a memory overflow.

[THuckaby2]

Too lazy to through the hassle of downloading, saving,etc...  just click on this:

http://www.blackmesagolfclub.com/11.html

[A_Clay_Man]

Here ya go Huck, picture from link above.

[THuckaby2]

You da man, Adam.

But riddle me this:  why the heck did they take that from the side?  That's looking down from 12 tee... man a pic up the canyon would be a lot better, don't you think?

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

The orientation is poor. The tee is to the left. That makes the line look more as though that left bunker is leftside short of the green. The grass swale down to the right of the green is a popular area. The ridge that forms the shelf above the grass hollow will throw your ball left. And the left side rock outcrop will throw it right. A fun hole receptive to only well played shots. Even if you play it off the rocks.

Also, another interesting aspect of this hole which can't be seen in ths picture(far right) and is even hard to see when you are on it, is, the box canyon that the green resides in requires an amazing amount of drainage. Which actually runs directly underneath the entire length of the hole, Two huge drains lie behind this green, you can almost see one just to the right of the back bunker. Definitely not where you want to be on this hole. I think a large % of the total cu/yds moved, made this greensite.

[Bill_McBride]

Lou, I think maybe that par 3 at Las Campanas is the one where the two members caught up and joined us.  Maybe #13?  But it could be the first one.  I do remember that drop off in front of the green and think it is the later hole.  I like that use of the wash.

I agree that Black Mesa par 3 is #4.  I think (he waffled).

[Mike Benham]

You da man, Adam.

But riddle me this:  why the heck did they take that from the side?  That's looking down from 12 tee... man a pic up the canyon would be a lot better, don't you think?

TH

Strategy is not limited to the golf shot, but also to the photo shot ... angle of sun, shadows, contrast are all mui importante ...  

[THuckaby2]

Adam/Mike - thanks for the descriptions.  Re the photo, well.. the light is good... I guess that trumps the fact that it completely distorts what the hole is really like, which is as described by Adam....

[Mike Nuzzo]

Huck,
Next time I'm there I'll be sure and take some pictures from the tee....
 

Actually if you'll notice the clouds... there weren't a whole lot of good light opportunities that day.  The winds were around 50 mph, and I was almost blown off a few of those ridges.

[Brad Swanson]

Ask, and you shall recieve!

#11 Black Mesa (from the tee via Doug Wright's camera)


Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Bill_McBride]

Was Doug standing a bit crooked taking that photo?  I don't recall the green being quite that tilted, although maybe it was.

Anybody disagree that those box canyons par 3's are the "signature holes" of Black Mesa?   A back left pin on #4 guarded by that hellish boulder of an outcropping is something to relish, particularly for the draw-challenged.  

[Brad Swanson]

Bill,
   From my recollection, I think Doug got the horizon right.  If you use the rocks behind the green as level, it would give the green even more R to L slope!  What isn't really seen are the tiers and front to back slope.  I had about a 12 footer downhill for birdie, and I missed my 20 foot comebacker for par (this was about the time that the mild-mannered smack talker on the opposing team kicked it into high gear )

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[A_Clay_Man]

Bill- That right side is severely sloped and I think what you are seeing is the back portion, which is higher and distorts the slope in the pic. The green is still sloped that direction, but not as much as that rightside would indicate. It is sloped back to front, as Brad mentions, and has a slight saddle (very slight)

Mike Nuzzo- Great shot. It is amazing how great the color is here when it becomes overcast and your picture really shows how the green pops, when it's cloudy. Unless you doctored it?

[Lou_Duran]

It's embarrasing, but I can't remember the sand on #11.  As I recall, in the a.m. round from the back tee I hit a 5 iron to the back fringe and took three to get it in from there.  In the p.m. I hit a 7 iron 20' right of the hole from the 2nd set of tees and hit a good chip 15' past.  Tough green.

#4, the subject of the first picture I erroneously identified as #11, is quite a bit harder and longer (200+ from the back).  As I recall, it has a northern orientation and there's a bunch of trash short right.

I wonder if BM be a better course if they flipped the nines around?  The start with four tight, uncomfortable holes put me on the defensive.  #s 8 and 9 are also better finishing holes than #s 17 and 18.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Lou- As you probably recall the routing was suppose to start on #10. But with the additional property, to the north, that Baxter fell in love with made the addition of holes 2-7 possible.

I do not agree that 8 and 9 are better finishers. But that's what makes the world go round. There are a couple of reasons I feel this way and I will try to splain'.

The narrowness of the 16th 17th and 18th holes make them perfect examinations of the stronger players game. Coming early in the round, this narrowing, would cause any climactic feeling to be lost.

Why is that you feel the opposite?

[THuckaby2]

Mike - sorry about that, didn't know it was your picture!  It's cool enough in terms of light and all... I just have this thing against side views of golf holes that I know.  For a first-timer, you give a great pic of the green, and you really had no other way to do that other than going from the side, huh?  No helicopters or enormous cranes were provided...

Re flipping the nines, I think it's fine how it is.  Yes, the current 1-4 are all tight holes, but it's not like 10-11-12-13 are wide open!  The finishers seem equal to me also...

[Lou_Duran]

Adam,

I did not recall that about the original routing.

My routing preference is for the course to begin moderately and build to a crescendo when possible.  While not ideal, I think that at BM this would be better accomplished by flipping the nines.  

Personally, I do not like #1 at all as a starting hole.  I am not a big fan of blindness, particularly early in the round.  My preference is to get the golfer started quickly and on a good note.  Looking for lost balls on the first shot, or having a starting hole where reloading is the rule is not a good idea in my book.  Perhaps this is something I could get over after playing the hole a few times, but, I think the course needs one-time and infrequent visitors to be financially viable.

It is my understanding that the predominant wind most of the year has north and west orientantions.   #2 playing mostly with a favorable wind also calls for an accurate, less than a driver shot and a short second to a tricky green.  Again, a hole like this I would prefer later on in the round.

#3 will normally play as a three shot par 5, specially so early in the round, with the second shot, a lay-up, not all that demanding.  As the 12th hole, the golfer being all revved-up and maybe needing a birdie or better, he would likely challenge the hole more aggresively.

#4, is a very difficult par 3, arguably the hardest of the set or just a tad below #8.  I think that it makes for a superior first par 3 on the back, and the current #11 (which I like a lot) is better as the introductory short hole.

#10 is a difficult hole, though downwind much of the time, it plays much shorter.  It does call for a driver for most of us, which I like in a starting hole.  #11 as a short-mid iron flows in nicely, as does 12 and 13 with some room of the tee, and often with a helping wind.  I think that this stretch of holes would get the player started less defensively.

I believe that #s 8 and 9 are better closing holes than the current routing's, and both #s 15 and 16 are a bit too quirky for being so late in the round (and not having the opportunity of enough holes to overcome a disaster).

This thread was not meant to be a semi-detailed analysis of BM and its routing.  However, I think I have gained a greater appreciation for the course as a result.