Weiskopf speaks on TPC Scottsdale changes

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Good article by Bill Huffman in today's Tribune quoting Weiskopf, Calcavecchia, Magee and Lehman on the changes to TPC Scottsdale:

www.aztribune.com/index.php?sty=16227

[Lou_Duran]

Steve,

Thanks for the link.  There seems to be a near unanimity among the archies and some concensus among the pros that the ball issue must be addressed seriously.  The Nov.-Dec. issue of "T & L Golf" has an interesting interview with five architects (Rees Jones, Hills, Morrish, Hurdzan, and Pascuzzo) specifically weighing on this matter.  Prediction:  there will be much tighter ball performance standards within two years for tournament play, quite possibly to a pre-ProV1 timeframe.

BTW, has anyone tried the Nike "One"?  It might have been a one time thing, but it seemed that for me it was 10 yards+ longer than the ProV.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I'd be curious to what others think of the TPC / Scottsdale. Minus a few holes -- I am a fan of the par-4 17th -- I really don't think there's much to rave about.

The course is simply on flat land and unless the changes are really "adding architecturally" to the course it's simply not going to mean much. So what if the boys don't shoot -25?

Does anyone think TPC / Scottsdale really belongs in the top 20 of all AZ golf courses? In my mind it doesn't.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Matt,

         I was never a big fan of the TPC at Scottsdale, overpriced and overrated. I'd rather play the desert course next door 5 times instead.  I'd be hard pressed to rate it in the top 20 courses in Scottsdale.  

[Andy]

Matt, no way it is in the Top 20, but agree, that among TPC courses, it is probably #2 or #3.  Bottom line, most of the TPC courses are just awful.  Concept at TPC Scottsdale was to be able to handle 120,000 people in one day, as they do on Friday and Saturday, which it can do.  I do think Weiskopf and Morrish did a pretty good job, since handling crowds was "job one".  The circus atmosphere is why the field is generally weak.  I would rank it around 30th in Arizona, but I am a Southern Cal person, so I have not seen all courses there, including the new Desert Mountain one nor Whisper Rock.  I have seen Mirabel, which I am not crazy about.  Andy

[yogi_barry]

I could probably think of 20 ahead of TPC Scottsdale just within Scottsdale...

[Matt_Ward]

Appreciate the feedback and I did get a laugh out of what Craig said regarding the fact there are likely 20 better courses JUST in Scottsdale. What makes it soooooo funny is how true it is!

The TPC Scottsdale is a great example in what is wrong with a number of PGA Tour events. The whole premise of the place is to pack people in to see the players like cattle -- and one other thing -- sell as much boooooooze and brewskiissss as one can!

The architecture is truly low level at best. Like I said I do like the short par-4 17th -- the one where the pin is usually placed in the rear of the green with the narrow tongue.

The course is dreadfully dull and even with the length the professionals will simply dial in with one or two more clubs at best.

I often wonder if a new venue would really showcase the desert in such a way that really tests the players instead of the birdie-fest one sees. But that would mean reining in all the ticket and liquor sales -- not likely.  

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

you asked:
>Does anyone think TPC / Scottsdale really belongs in the top 20 of all AZ golf courses? In my mind it doesn't.

It's in my top 20 of "fun" courses in Arizona.  I found it rather easy and enjoyable.  

But as far as being a 'great golf course'?

NAH!!

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

I find it interesting how you separated courses between those that are "fun" and those that are "great."

Personally, I really think great golf courses are fun ones. Clearly, there are courses where the fun meter is a bit higher than others and because fo those demands it may not be as much "fun" if you're not hitting it consistently.

TPC / Scottsdale is simply a major league disappointment. What people see on TV is far from the kind of appearance the course presents in person. It is on some of the most hideous terrain one can imagine -- boringly dead flat and as a result needed major helpings from man's hand to transform itself into something. It truly escapes me why a better location that intertwines Pinnacle Peak and the surrounding terrain could not have been chosen years ago as a premier tour site.

[yogi_barry]

Matt,

I totally agree...  In non-tournament play you can blast it about anywhere on most holes - there is little strategic merit and the site has minimal visual/natural interest...  It was designed primarily to accomodate gobs of people - 100,000+.  If you haven't been there, it is hard to describe the sheer numbers of people - especially on tournament Saturday...  That scale doesn't translate well the rest of the year - it's just BIG SPACE and HUGE MOUNDS.  The best holes (and most fun) are #11 and 17.  Beyond that, a few good/fun holes - no more...  The game of golf is fun in and of itself - but TPC Scottsdale doesn't heighten the experience...  I rate the Papago Muni as infinately more fun!

Talking Stick has proven that quality and fun can be created on ugly, dead flat land - the property isn't an excuse...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Just a few comments about TPC courses in general. I understand that Deane Beman was the moving force behind the concept. One of the features was that Tour events could be played on them(the Stadium concept) without having to pay user fees to private clubs or public courses. TPC Scottsdale was built on city land if I remember correctly. No consideration was given to land that would cost a significant amount such as land closer to mountain areas. Scottsdale wanted its name out there for tourism. Even though the event was The Phoenix Open, TPC Scottsdale was prominently mentioned on tv and in print. Scottsdale also had enough land at the site to have The Desert Course built for local residents to play at more reasonable rates. It's a fun, walkable course also designed by Weiskopf/Moorish. Other than Sawgrass(which has been modified so many times since its opening to its current high regard,)I can't think of another TPC course that is architecturally well regarded.
Steve

[Paul Richards]

Matt:

>Personally, I really think great golf courses are fun ones


Amen to that!

However, a golf course can be a lot of fun and not be architecturally great.  That was just my point.