Dig it or dig it up...Victoria National

[T_MacWood]

This course seems to register all sorts of opinions. I really like the course...its one of the most unique settings in golf...the network of flooded quaries and the waste piles. Very challenging. My only complaint is the course doesn't quite match the rugged beauty of the site...a wee bit too clean for my tastes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

We need a pic, so I'll borrow one of Ran's.



I dig it, although the water in front of the green is a little fussy.  Still, the restraint shown by the almost non-descript little bunker short right saves the day.

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

Great (or seriously troubled) minds think alike.  Forget about cleaning up the area right of the green...

How long is the hole from the tips?

[TEPaul]

Who built that course? If it's Tom Fazio, after Barney's heretical remark about Maidstone's #17 I'm coming after this hole at Victoria National (if Tom Fazio built it) tomorrow. I don't care if the ground is frozen solid---I'm come after it with a pick ax and I'll dig the whole damn thing up before the day is done!

To Hell with that accomodating putz Tom Paul and his "Big World" theory on golf and golf architecture.

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

I think the hillside on the right should be maintained in a way where finding your ball is likely, but it should still look unmaintained.  Know what I mean?  

Besides, one always has the option of laying up short of the water, and I bet a high percentage of the membership would have a better scoring average doing just that (I'm assuming that almost none of them do so).

So, I have no problem with the hole, although you might want to check if it's still there tomorrow.  

Tom Paul lives close to me and I think I just heard his car starting.  

Ironically, for the past 20 minutes I heard this "sharpening" noise, sort of like the scene in SlingBlade where Billy Bob Thornton's character was in the garage putting a fine edge on his lawnmower blade.

I'm not sure he knows the directions to the course, so you might want to lock your doors.

[T_MacWood]

The mistake was building the little artificial mote in front of the green and pond on the right. Expand the large lake around to the front left of the green if you wish, but leave the front more or less open. There are two other par-3's with similar water features...no need to make three.

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

That's clearly the play, if one doesn't have the guts to attempt the layup.  No homer shame in that.

I agree with MacWood, although a more natural creek (think 11 at Merion) flowing into a larger body of water would erase any sign of man's unnecessary tampering on what appears to be a really thought-provoking and scary hole.

In fact, in thinking about it, if that creek kept going in the direction it did, and didn't turn into a pond, but was about 20 yards short right of the green instead, it would be much improved.

[TEPaul]

That Fazio VN hole is safe for now as Barney just admitted on the other thread he didn't think Maidstone's #17 was 'butt ugly' just that the stop signages behind it were.

But fair warning has been served that for every cool classic old hole Barney recommends digging up I'll annihilate two Fazio holes on Barney's course!

[TEPaul]

That green looks like an old fashioned pancake gridle to me. And I love the drop down handle effect on the front of it--is that for the optional run-up shot? That bunker on the right looks to be highly strategic too--obviously designed to double in preventing a golfer who takes a misstep on the right side of the green from falling into the water! I always thought that Tom Fazio was a helluva architect and that hole proves why he's world famous--there's no telling all the things he thinks of in his designs--he's definitely a full service architect!

[SPDB]

Jacque-Ah

What distinguishes the hole pictured below from the 5th? It seems like the green is much larger, but besides that the holes look strikingly similar. Curious how they play

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul;

I understand your criticism, but if that creek had just continued in the direction it was heading, and that "fairway" area was continued over where the pond now resides, would you have the same impression?

Sean;

Yikes...that hole is scarily similar.  Nice to see me defending Fazio and you criticizing him, though!  

[TEPaul]

"The first of what has been described as the best collection of par 3s anywhere."

Described as the best set of par 3s anywhere by whom??

The world in my "Big World" theory of golf architecture just got a whole lot bigger!

As Butch said to Sundance;

"WHO ARE THOSE GUYS??"

Please tell me that hole #5 is just some rendering of over the top beautification and that it's not real!

What do you think the possibility is of isolating TomF and all the people who work for him on that green for a few years by cutting off that peninsula? I'll volunteer to throw them some twinkies from time to time!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

You're forgetting the fact that there are nine tees so that everyone from touring professionals to single-celled amoebas can choose a proper test for their game.  

[SPDB]

A couple of point of order are in, err, uh..order.

First, Mike, I was merely curious about the playability of the two holes, and have been for some time.

Second, TomP  - Bear in mind the nature of the property that this golf course inherited. It was mostly strip mined.

[TEPaul]

"You want me to tell you how to stategically play a par three with nine different tees from three different angles to a green with three greens within a green...you need to visit me for that one."

Barney:

Let me guess before you show SPDB;

That's 9x3=27x3=81

That's at least 81 options or theoretically well over a thousand options! Never let it be said again that Tom Fazio isn't strategically multi-optional! No wonder he's the most famous architect in the world--what will he think of next?

[JakaB]

Spdb,

Go to the same site you found that pic and post a pic of the routing and the pic of the other par threes...It is a windy site and the multidirectional nature of the 3 pars should not be ignored if you are going to say they play the same....This is fun banter among friends and may not live to see the eyes of the public.

[SPDB]

JaKaB

I didn't claim to know how they play, i was merely asking. I posted the pics out of curiosity (i noticed the similarity a long time ago, and even posed the question 1.5 yrs ago). Not a criticism - i'll have to play the course first before i can criticize.

But for the sake of discussion, let's assume a windless day (however rare that is)

Since you asked -

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

The area that course was on was a strip mine before Fazio built that course? That really is amazing. I always said there was just about nothing Tom Fazio couldn't do. I mean that too--I'm serious--it really is incredible what he can pull off in architecture. If that site was a strip mine preconstruction he really did make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Is Tom Fazio a republican and a Bush supporter? I hope so and I hope the President let's him go to the moon or even Mars--can you imagine what kind of courses Tom could pull off up there?

[JakaB]

TomP,

I think the number of options is closer to 9!....362,880 possibilities....which is interesting in that unless I only played this one hole the rest of my life I will never peel back all the magnificent layers.

[SPDB]

Mike - Check out the pic of #16 (which you posted above). I notice that it does appear as though balls are playable from that righthand slope. Which begs the question - would you want to play from that righthand slope.

[TEPaul]

Interesting layout! Does that course have cancer or are those things multiple tees?

[JakaB]

Fazio reincarnate with water used as eye candy...

[TEPaul]

I think that hole truly is highly strategic Barn. You know how I'd play it--I'd start at the tips, play leap frog from one tee box to the next, put my ball on the green from the last one, take two putts for a ten and like KennyV said go quietly to the next hole!

[TEPaul]

Where's that last photo from? That looks pretty nice!

[JakaB]

Two weeks ago I teed it up at the 18th green and played the course backwards.....it is so funny you mention leap frogging from tee to tee because that is exactly what I did on some holes to set up my approach to the next green....funny how a tee is so much smaller than most greens and that much more difficult to hit.