Dig it or Dig it up... Willie Park

[JakaB]

This is butt ugly...just dig it or dig it up..

[SPDB]

JakaB -

I will let you dig this up on one condition. You play the 16 holes before it and if you still feel like you want to dig it (or any other part of the course) up, be my guest.

Dig it.

If you want some Willie Park to dig up, jump across the LI Sound.

[Brian_Gracely]

Butt ugly??  This is a great looking green.  It appears to be a dog-leg left where the better line into the hole is from the outside of the dog-leg.  The front bunker pushes into the green to create a nice contour.  The narrow green slopes back to front and towards the right, so you really need to approach it from the right side.  

And on top of all of that, Willie had the good sense to know that players in the 21st century would not be that keen at understanding strategy and architecture, so he cleverly added STOP signs behind the hole to remind the player not to go long with their approach shots.  You just don't see this sort of foresight in today's architects.  

[A_Clay_Man]

How can you not like the mound that the right bunker creates?

I say MOW it. The rough line is once again ridiculous.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Jaka,

Dig it. If there are some East Hampton chicks in that car, I promise you it is not butt ugly.

[tonyt]

How long is the normal approach into this green? If it is a short par 4 or a par 5, I think the green complex is awesome, and almost modern technology proof.

[Brian_Gracely]

tonyt,

Just realized that this is #17 at Maidstone, which is a 330 yard par4.  It's highlighted in Ran's review of the course, http://www.golfclubatlas.com/meadowbrookmaidstone1.html.  

[GeoffreyC]

Barney  

That is one of the coolest short holes you will ever find. It will sucker many a long hitter into going too far left in an attempt to drive the green or get in as close as possible.  The result is a wickedly difficult pitch to a narrow green over the bunker with OB beyond.    It is temptation at its best. Ask Gene  

You come up with some pretty wild ideas but wanting to dig up Maidstone without seeing it is up there.  Maybe we should just have the rich folks move the road out of site and frame the green with more pretty trees.

[Willie_Dow]

Barney:

Before you "dig it up" look at New Bedford Country Club.  MA.

[Bill_McBride]

Sort of like #10 Riviera in reverse with an OB immediately behind the apparent best line into the green!  You don't often see a stop sign that close to a green on a classic course.

[JakaB]

Starting a DioDiu thread does not mean I like or dislike a hole...I've never played this hole so how would I know...but...Did Willie Park design the OB so close to the green as it is found today...I just doubt it and would like to see the road dug up.  One other question..Is that a red stake to the left of the green..I don't see a hazard.

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

The 17th at Maidstone is one of my favorite 100 holes I've ever played.

You should see the internal green contours on this one!  Some people think it was Perry Maxwell, but the interesting thing is that this greensite goes back to the 1890s and one of the original iterations of the Maidstone course.  

Others think that Raynor was responsible for the green orientation.

In any case, Geoffrey's superlatives are hardly hyperbole.

I say, BRONZE IT.  

[Brian_Gracely]

JakaB,

I originally thought that was a red hazzard stake also, but looking just to the left of it I saw a bunch of similar looking "items".  I believe those happen to be thick strands of that native grass.

[T_MacWood]

Dig it.

[TEPaul]

Barney, you damn idiot, this hole just happens to be one of the coolest little match play holes in the entire world, and in the perfect place in Maidstone's routing for it too---and you want to call it "butt ugly" and dig it up?

This is the absolute height of heresy on your part! As Walsh finally said to the maniacal and besotted Senator McCarthy at end of McCarthy's communist witch hunting era, effectively putting an end to McCarthy;

"Sir, have you NO SHAME?"

That beautiful little green you're looking at there is on a course that's probably still mostly Willie Park Jr but that little beauty was done by Perry Maxwell, perhaps the world's finest green builder, you, you, you complete idiot!!

One of the reasons you probably think the hole is butt ugly is because there's so much pavement around it which you just can't deal with as that might be something Tom Fazio wouldn't recommend due to his formulaic and photographic sensibilities regarding golf architectural presentation for not much more than visual appeal.

There's no hole in the world where a slightly sculled SW could more easily wipe out a Rolls Royce window than that little beauty---and that just has to account for a great deal in the spectrum of golf architecture. It's only a mere 6-7 steps from the right edge of the green surface on that tiny little green and the pavement.

Why don't you post a photo of Riviera's #10 and recommend that a hole like that on an essentially flat and mundane piece of ground is "Butt boring"?

You should be summarily chucked off the roof of the treehouse squarely onto your right ear for this heresy!! And then you should be dragged by a rope tied to one ankle back up to the roof of the treehouse and summarily chucked off the roof again squarely onto your left ear. Then all of us should leap off the roof of the treehouse onto the back of your head wearing those golf shoes we weren't able to remove the metal spikes from to change to soft spikes!!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Brian;

No, that's a hazard.

From the tee, one is faced with a type of carry "cape" tee shot situation where one can try to play aggressively towards the green (and a longer carry) to the left, or safely right.

It's an almost perfect example of a "gotcha" hole, where an aggressive but unthinking drive at the green almost needs to be perfectly placed (to the front right side of the green) or almost any number is possible.  You see, even if you make the carry successfully, a shot short left is left with an approach with less than a full club to a VERY narrow green, over the bunkers, with OB just footsteps behind.  

The golfer who bails out right is left with a better angle, but still must hit an exacting approach to a very severe green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul;

Our responses just crossed in cyberspace.

I went for the "educational" approach, but I fully understand your more impassioned diatribe.  

However, I must say that your response makes Howard Dean look calm and reserved by contrast.  

[JakaB]

TEPaul,

So are you saying that roads added by greedy developers can add to a classic design...wasn't the hole strategic enough in its original design or did that OB just have to be that much closer to work.

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

That road has been there since time immemorial and has been part of the property since the beginning.  In fact, my book on Maidstone calls it a "road hole".  

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

My response is not just impassioned--it's murderous! I will hound this man to the ends of the earth. The world is not big enough even in my "Big World" theory for this man to escape unpunished!

By the way Barn, in case you missed it my "Big World" theory is based on the phrase;

"Golf and its architecture is a great big thing and there's room in it for everyone."----except it's not a big enough thing for Barney to hide in after this Grand HERESY!

[JakaB]

Tom,

I dig the hole..I just find the road and its signage butt ugly.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul;

I understand your homicidal tendencies; really I do.

But, in the interest of keeping you out of prison again, let's make a deal.

You see, I fear that Tom Fazio's associates lurk on this site and will soon recognize Jakab as a kindred spirit.  It doesn't take much of a leap of faith to imagine them offering him an "associate" position with their firm, particularly given his background in engineering.

Given the number of classic courses who have already hired Fazio to "clean up" or  worse yet, "restore" their courses, I'm imagining a nightmare scenario where Maidstone finally gets frustrated by Rees Jones's reticence to work there, and hires Fazio to do the job.

Of course, given his busy schedule, the work will be done by an associate....

You get the idea.

If that scenario comes to fruition, I volunteer to join you in your murderous quest.  

[Bill_McBride]

That green site reminds me of the 14th at Pensacola CC, always the smallest green on the PGA tour when they played the Pensacola Open here.  The hole is par 5, 560 yds, to a green angled severely right, and only 2000 SF with a deep bunker left and pot bunker and swale right.  The efffective target is maybe 30' wide.  The correct play with the 2nd shot is so far right you're almost to the tree line, and definitely in the rough.

But at least there's no stop sign and pavement 7 paces away!

[T_MacWood]

I find the placement of the stop signs as evidence of Park's brilliance. If the pin is left behind the bunkers, the left hand sign would certainly reek mental havoc...I'm contemplating the bold approach, but the sign says stop...perhaps it is more prudent to go right...but again a stop sign...the result is a lay up to the short right of right...followed by a pitch without a stop sign in the field of vision. Bravo Willie Park!

[TEPaul]

Oh, so now you're telling me you actually dig the hole but it's just the stop signage you find 'butt ugly'. OK, then, all is forgiven and I tend to agree with you on those stop signages--they're sort of unfortunate looking. But have you ever seen two Rolls Royces and a Ferarri meet simultaneously at 50MPH?

No, I didn't think so, but I have right there at that intesection before those stop signages necessarily went up. It wasn't a pretty sight and the noise was simply atrocious particularly the screeching deathly yelps of those six mniature French poodles!!