Need assistance on restoration projects

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I am attempting to get a local Heritage Organization interested in restoring a golf course in their community.  I think it would be helpful to indicate that other courses, clubs and communities are or have done this.  In the interest of accuracy I would like to mention, PURE, CLEAN AND MOSTLY COMPLETE restorations.
Examples would be Wilmington, NC muny.  Jeffersonvill, Pa, muny.  Yeaman's Hall.  I think NGLA is pretty pure.  Cypress Point.

Gray areas would be Bethpage Black, Valley Club of Montecito, which is mostly bunkers. GCGC.  Gulph Mills.

Then there are the renovations disguised as restorations, Riviera, Merion, Torrey Pines, East Lake, ANGC.  I guess I could go on and on with these.

Any help?  If you could just mention a few it would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[GeoffreyC]

Lynn

I would refute the idea that Yeamons Hall is anywhere near a "complete" restoration.  According to George, there are literally 50 missing bunkers on teh front nine alone.  Several of the bunkers that remain have not yet been redone and those are anythng but Raynoresque.  Also, several greens at YH were redone and I'm not sure if some were "sensitive interpretations" or if they were done from original drawings.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, my understanding is that Yeaman's might fall under the category of "incomplete restoration".  The work that has been done is admirable and definitely on the right track, but more will hopefully be accomplished down the road.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'll submit Harding Park in San Francisco since the city was very involved.  Its a very public restoration which may be helpful.  

[Lou_Duran]

LS,

You may wish to check with Mike DeVries re: The Meadow Club.

CC of Mobile (AL), Ron Forse, I believe, attempted a sympathetic restoration (I have some info. in a file if you want mt to dig it up).

[TEPaul]

Lynn:

May I ask you why you or this community might be so fixated on what you call a 'complete restoration'?

What if something was once changed from the original course for a very good reason? Wouldn't you like to know about that and the details of it? If not I'd assume you or the community might be potentially restoring something that for some good reason was once considered a mistake or unsatisfactory. Why would anyone want to do that, even in the name of a 'complete restoration?

[T_MacWood]

The question is what would convince the Heritage Organization that a restoration would be a worthy project. Many would point to an elevated ranking as measurement of successful 'restoration'. A smaller group (a minority even on GCA) would say an accrurately (or reasonably accurate) restored design...however one of the reason the latter group is small is because very few are able to recognize if a restoration is "pure, clean and mostly complete". I guess it would depend on the mind set (and golf architectural expertise) of the orginization as to which arguement might convince them.

If you are looking for courses whose ranking (or prestige) benefited from a 'restoration': Salem, Sea Island, Pasatiempo, Newport, Balusrol-Lower, Olympia Fields, Yeaman's Hall, Baltimore, Valley, Camargo, Bethpage, Aronomink, Skokie, Cape Breton and even Yale. Some accurate, some not so accurate--but all considered good 'restorations' by the majority of golfers. The danger in going this route--IMO--is that you might spark a psuedo or half-assed restoration.

You could also add Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, #2, Merion, Oakmont, NGLA, Seminole, SFGC and Prarie Dunes--although their prestige wasn't effected too much and again some accurate, some not...

Others that come to mind--Fenway, Ekwanok, Beverly, Lake Sunapee, Scranton (I believe Ian A. is restoring it), Lehigh, Broadmoor, Lookout Mountain...I've heard mostly good about these, although not unanimously positive.

[A.G._Crockett]

Lynn
I did a thread just after Xmas about Hope Valley in Durham, NC, a 1926 Ross course just "restored" by Brian Silva.  I would guess that it is a relatively pure restoration, though I think he took out some slopes on greens to make them more playable with modern bent grass surfaces.

[A_Clay_Man]

Lynn- The Cal club comes to mind in Ca. as well as a few in Chicago. Beverly and Skokie may be a bit individualistic in their categories, since Ross altered both from previous archies.

[Bill Gayne]

Lynn,

Attached is a link to a renovation project that was done Bide-A-Wee golf course in Portsmouth, Virginia. I don't know much about the renovation or the course but I have heard some positive comments from people who have played it. Maybe someone else knows a little bit more.


http://www.olddominiongolf.com/features/coursereviews/bideawee1.htm

[Thomas_Brown]

Memorial Park in Houston in the mid 90's.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Lynn,

I was recently involved with the desingation of Roseland golf course (Ross, 1926) here in Windsor, Ont. under the province of Ontario's Heritage Act, in recognition of its historic and architectural significance. The course is owned by the city, and operated as a muni.

I don't know if this is at all applicable to the situation you're referring to, but I think the heritage designation Roseland's received has really brought some attention to the course; attention it otherwise hasn't received. And, althougth the Ontario Heritage Act is a very loose piece of legislation, it does encourage "pure" restoration of designated heritage properties. (Some government agencies in Canada actually offer substantial grants to such properties as well.)

In fact, the Roseland Board of Directors have since commissioned a restorative-based plan that's, as of now, on hold due to the city's financial situation (another story!). But again, the designation brought some attention to Roseland's cutltural significance. As long as the city doesn't sell it anytime soon, I think we'll the course restored; at leastr in part because of the heritage designation.

[SPDB]

Lynn - Is the course worth restoring? Care to disclose?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

SPDB  Will reveal the course at the proper time.  It's no big secret, but I want the appropriate folks to disclose it.

Tom P.  Yes, I think I understand what you are saying.  The course cannot and should not go back to its very beginning in replica.  However at this time, the concept must be sold as a restoration of a course of historical significance.  To do the best job and make it the best for all players some adjustments will be and should be allowed.

To all others thanks for your timely input.

[Tom_Doak]

Lynn:  I would say that Camargo and The Valley Club are the two courses we've restored to the greatest degree.  No, we haven't rebuilt all the greens at The Valley Club, but as it stands all they're missing are some of the mowing lines of the putting surfaces and one fairway bunker on the 15th hole.  Camargo is pretty close as well.

Yeamans Hall is not a complete restoration because they don't want to put back a lot of the "old man" bunkers which were originally built 150-200 yards from the tees.  To hear Geoffrey's description you'd think we just winged the greens, but we did use every piece of info we had to restore them ... there just weren't any really detailed plans of them to work from.

This brings up an interesting point ... in many cases, if a club has rebuilt its greens, it's debatable whether there can be a true restoration at all.

[GeoffreyC]

Tom

Come on now- I said the same thing you did about the greens. I said

"Also, several greens at YH were redone and I'm not sure if some were "sensitive interpretations" or if they were done from original drawings".

That is hardly suggesting that "we just winged the greens"  

It was restating the truth that the greens in question were certainly in character ("sensitive interpretations") if in fact they were not reconstructed from plans.

Tom, I think you would agree that Yeamons still need some additional work.  I played the course with George Bahto so I think his tour of the course pointing out lost and still unrestored features (some of which were pretty wild and would add great character to the front nine) should be fairly accurate.

[GeoffreyC]

Tom-  I also agree with your statement concerning rebuilding greens and "true restorations".  

We can talk all we want about how pretty bunkers are rebuilt but if the greens surfaces themselves have been altered in any significant way that affects play then I think that's more significant.  

Its one of the reasons I really like the Fenway restoration. While the bunkering is also true to the way Tillinghast built them, the greens are originals!

[Willie_Dow]

Having just left Yeamans Hall Club, and having played with three members who really liked the work being done, I must commend Tom Doak for his methodology.  His work with the club shines brightly.

Kittansett Club and Gil Hanse/Kittleman worked together in a similar manner, and the results were terrific in my opinion.

Willie

[George_Bahto]

Tom: I'm not sure Geoffrey knew you (Jim U) had restored the bunkers at Yeamans Hall this past spring.

......  by the way, I understand the Raynor Soc has just completed an agreement with Yeamans and they will be hosting our next "meeting"

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Tom D.  Thanks for the imput on Valley Club.  Yes, why redo greens if they are the original and still good.

Geoff Childs.  If Yeamans through Jim U. have just done some more bunker work it sounds like we all need to see it again.  It might be a tough sell for some of the older members who fly through there in 3 hours.

George B. Incidentally did you ever research more on the Charleston muny and did you ever contact the City of Charleston?

[George_Bahto]

Lynn: the muni, right down the road from the Country Club (Charleston) was indeed built by the pro (or perhaps he was the super from the CC in 1929-1930, Johnny Adams and it was built according to the Raynor plans.

Pretty tight layout but the basic design is solid.

Last fall while at Hilton Head I was going to go up to Yeamans for a day but ended up scouting the muni all day with the contact I have from the city who had assisted in gathering a lot of the info about the muni course.

We're trying get the city, that is so into restoration, interested.

That was my lastest of about 35 lost Raynor courses. Plenty more out there.

[DMoriarty]

Does anyone have any information on the Haggin Oaks (MacKenzie) restoration in Sacramento?  How it came about?  Who did the work?  How did it turn out?  

[Lynn_Shackelford]

George B.  It sounds like we are on similar tracks with cities on each coast.  I have had little success with the city staff folks.  They are more concerned about getting something done with little regard to restoration or saving money.  Not from lack of wanting, but they just don't know of any other way to go.  I am now going the route of groups in the city who are savy in restoration and know the community's politics.  Any advice or success you have had I would be anxious to here about.  We may also try the city council route.  It sounds like you may have an insider with the City of Charleston.

[RJ_Daley]

Lynn, the City of Cleveland tauts its 1990 renovation of Ross's Manakiki as a faithful one.  I can't find who did the work.  Perhaps Tim Weiman or I think Evan Fleisher knows something about it.  I don't know if the city specifically hired the archie to do the work as a real restoration or upgrade and remodel.  

I did drive by that muni in Charleston a few times, and it looked pretty old and funky with some old style earthworks placed on the otherwise dead flat terrain.  I wish I'd have had more time because I was thinking about stopping in for a closer look.

[JCU]

Lynn.  No green is original, after years of top dressing the greens are all affected, mostly in the fronts. That is where most of the sand is spun out during top dressing.  After years of sand applications, mostly applied evenly and sometimes NOT.  We can assume that all the contours invisioned by the Architect. have been slightly altered.  Remember that top dressing sands change over the years as the supply of the sands changed so does the particle size, also the amount of organic materials associated with the sands.  The greens at Yeamans Hall for many years had organic material added to the top dressing which sped up the transformation.