St.Andrews 2000 (Pics)

[Brian_Ewen]

Guys
I have shown you a couple of my favs among the older courses in the area , so what about the more modern ones ?.

Well here on the Eastern Seaboard of Thailand , a lot of the modern courses leave me cold . When I first visited this area 16 years ago there was 3 courses , after the boom of the early nineties there is now 23 courses within an hour of where I am staying. Most are signature courses from the likes of Nicklaus, Faldo , Player , Dye , Trent Jones , etc. , a lot are in very poor condition , bankrupt and in the hand of the banks due the Asian Economy collapsing a few years back .

Yet a few are worth playing , One I do enjoy playing is St.Andrews 2000

Imaginatively named and opened in the year 2000 , St.Andrews 2000 was designed by Desmond Muirhead and although I cringe at some of it , a lot of it is very enjoyable golf . The one thing I would never call this course is boring .

Unfortunately its compulsory carts and caddies , still even though its one of the more expensive courses in the area , it still works out at about 2000 baht all in ( $50) .

Happy New Year , and all the best for 2004
Brian



The shortish par 4 first .

 
The par 4 2nd

 
The par 3 third


The par 6 fourth , How do you photograph a par 6 on three seperate pieces of land ? , like this ?.

 
The par 3 fifth


The par 4 sixth
I have never seen a hole like this before , its around 290 yards to the green , but you must take on that 22 bunkers and its a small target . A easy lay up and wedge is the other option.


Approach into the sixth


The par 4 seventh
Quite a few of the holes have two distinct fairways like this .


Tee shot at the par 4 9th.


The par three 10th


The par 4 12th.
This hole is only 300 yards but a card wrecker . Drivable , but the green is tiny and two tiered . Lay up on the left is the best shot but beyond the cartpath is OB. A Lay up short of the bunkers and its still a difficult approach.


Second shot at the par 6 13th


Tee shot to the par 4 15th .
Mr Muirhead seems to like these high tees , I must say I loved driving off of here as well .


Tee shot at the par 4 16th , Even uphill holes start downhill .


Fairway on the 16th .


The par 3 17th.


Fairway of the par 5 18th . Here there was three choices , top or bottom fairway or take on the rockery and pot luck.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brian,
I wish I would have taken the prints for "New St. Andrews" when I had the chance. Instead, I took all of the plans he had of some of his US courses. In truth, it just would have been too much to handle. My truck was filled to the top as it was for the ride home.

These plans are now in Japan, where they should probably be anyway, and someday they will be part of a display I think its at Segovia, one of his symbolism courses.

I do have the original plans for: (off the top of my head)

-Muirfield Village (just in case Jack wants to start denying again that Desmond had anyting to do with it. I also have the original routing map.
-Desert Island, which was originally going to be called Desert National.
-Mayacoo Lakes--I kept that one so Redanman could get a look at it someday, as well as if the club ever wants to restore the course.

Much more I can't think of at the moment.

IN truth, I'm saving them all for Tom Doak so he can have them!

[Brian Phillips]

Brian,

Thanks for these photos.  I wonder what Tommy really thinks of these....why no comments about the course Tommy.

The fifth and the tenth are the same hole...no?

You just got to love the tree planting on the 17th...

Tommy, i find it amazing that you can rip Tom Fazio apart so much on this site but when pictures like this come on by Muirhead.....not so much as a mutter....

Not biased by any chance are you?

For someone who loves TOC and MacKenzie, I just do not see what Muirhead has done for the good of golf...apart from a good book on TOC.

Tommy, you can't tell this is good architecture....please don't...

Brian

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brian, Did I say I liked it? I liked the man, not his work. He himself knew this, and it led to many great architectural discussions between the two of us. He taught me a lot too because I listened. It didn't mean I had to agree.

I kept his plans because I felt that it would have been what he wanted. I owed him that for the including me in long list of friends, for which I will never have a problem admitting I was one of them.

[Michael Dugger]

Is that par 3 16th a biarritz?  It looks like a wicked swale.  Pretty dramatic and severe hole, IMHO.  I think I'd like to play it.

Another thing I noticed was Muirhead's attention to detail.  One of the photos shows a couple of rock groupings near a tee.  There is gravel running between two.  I doubt this was coincidence, yet the significance is beyond me.

[RJ_Daley]

Mike D., it looks like Des must have been influenced by Rees's containment mounding at Sand Pines.  Lot's of dirt and fill there in Thailand.  He makes Rees look almost sedate.  Yet, there seems to be plenty of manufacture strategy, if you like a par 6 double fairway.  That is the hinkiest looking version of a Biarritz I can imagine.

There has got to be something good to be said for the whole Thailand winter thing.  A friend of mine at our Green Bay men's club stays there Dec., through March.  He pays a member fee @$1000 for unlimmited golf at a club there, with privileges at 6 other courses.  He plays in a travelling league there.  He says his daily living expenses room board and "entertainment" are cheaper than staying here for the winter.  I thought of him Sat., the 27th of Dec., when I played a round here on the frozen tundra-no kidding!

[Brian Phillips]

I don't think it is a Biarritz, to me it looks like a very steep tiered green, as the sides at the low point are blocked.

Brian,

Is it a Biarritz?

Brian.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael,
Judging from what I know of Desmond's work, its the influence of the 12th green of the Old Course, and he used it on several courses throughout his career.

Brian, after your little emotional tirade last night, I feel free to add now that Desmond and I had one HUGE thing in common--our love for the Old Course and how its influences are a good thing for golf architecture.

How it relates to his modern work, well, I have to say, I don't like containment--never have, and have always said so on this website. I also was fortunate to have several interesting discussions with Desmond on why it was bad for the game.

I don't like artificial things being introduced to golf courses either, but Desmond had a good way about introducing strategy to the mix, regardless of what you think of him or his golf courses which I might add your judging from a photo of a golf course you've probably never seen.

Also, I have to ask, how many of Desmond's golf courses have you seen in person or played in your lifetime?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Also, Brian,
Once again, thanks for posting the pics, because they do show some of us that are willing to look at them another side of the world.

My take on this course if I may be so bold to make the call without seeing it, would be much like all of Desmond's courses from 1984 on:
-Really thought provoking strategy wise
-Horribly artificial to the point that it gets a bit claustraphoibic, even though some of the holes could get as wide as 175 yards.
-All sorts of Variety from tee to green.
-Really wild greens that work and add to the flavor while beating you up
-If in fact symbolism was used, you didn't notice it if you weren't looking for it. Desmond wanted to provoke THOUGHT, not neccesarily display it, but when in fact he did display it you weren't going to forget it.
-At the end of the day you walk away feeling like you had a good time, but got beat-up score wise. His courses for the most part are very tough.

[Brian Phillips]

Tommy,

The one thing I love about gca.com is that you can and should be able to give an opinion about a course based on photos and only that.  

I want to know why I am not allowed to give an opinion based on photos.  Why the hell post photos on the site if opinions are not wanted?  

I want people to have opinions about all courses from all around the world..that is why I don't dare post my photos from Geilo yet as I don't think they are good enough photos to give the course the credit it deserves...not from my design but from the nature side of it.

It was not a tirade it was just a thought, that you didn't give an opinion because he is an old friend and you were being polite.  I don't have to visit the course to see that it is not a natural course in fact it is ridiculously manufactured...in fact it could have been designed by Humphrey Repton or 'Capability' Brown...it's a garden not a golf course with a lousy planting program....

The course is as artificial as it can be and that goes against my grain of design.  My ambition as a young architect is to move earth (mountains of it if necessary) but to put it back as if most of it has not been touched.  I do not feel Muirhead has achieved that when I look at those pictures.

I don't know how you can say that the 17th hole is related to the 12th at TOC...please explain...it doesn't look one bit like the 12th and certainly does not play like the 12th...I would love to speak to the greenkeeper about looking after it.

I can't get my head around someone like yourself and Muirhead that both love TOC but then defend this sort of design...yet in the same breath complain about Fazio or Rees Jones...it does not make sense.

Sorry, Tommy, maybe it is best that we agree to disagree on this one...

Brian

[A_Clay_Man]

BrianP- Do you see any humor in this architecture? I do, it jumped off the screen at me. The par 6, that is funny and those 22 bunkers were not only hysterical they all look pretty cool with their varying grass wall faces, daring and tempting the ego. The 10th looked like an island redan which is even more humorous.

Brian E- Does that first green have a right to left slant with three subtle levels? If so, I'd say it's a copy of the first at Quail Ridge, ayhuh, Tommy?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brian,
Instead of trying to police me, why not concentrate on the issues at hand. I said INFLUENCE, and quite obviously it isn't something they taught you in Edinburough. As Adam has noticed, he brings up Quail Ranch's 1st hole which I described to him in GREAT detail one day when playng there, what the green once looked like before it had been flattened. It was the same influenced tier, only a little less severe that you see in Brian's pictures.

In discussion with Desmond, I told him when actually going over the course (Quail Ranch) hole for hole one day, were you thinking of the 12th when you did this? He said emphaticaly, "YES."

So Brian, think what you want to think, and say what you want to say, but its obvious you have a chip on your shoulder about something as inconsequential and stupid as a Christmas cheer design contest which is what your tirade on me is all about. If you didn't see the humor, then that is your problem. Wasn't the entire contest supposed to be fun?

And your wrong, pictures should aspire you to look into the work, not judge it. When we post them on GCA we do it to help tell the story, and if something should be so outragious or is worthy of mention, hopefully the pictures can go along with the words to better and more accurately define the detail. Still, nothing is better then seeing it for yourself. You of all people should know that.

[Matt_Ward]

FYI:

I enjoyed the photos but if anyone thinks Muirhead got carried away in Thailand -- you should have played the old Stone Harbor that he designed in Cape May, NJ.

There's no two-hole combo more "unique" then the original 6th and 7th at Stone Harbor. The "Jaws" hole was something that would make any golfer cry because when played at it's maximum of 190 yards you simply had to have the hands of God paced on your head with his blessing -- especially with the wind up and blowing as is per usual.

R.I.P. Desmond -- definitely one of a kind.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks Matt, I think you properly put it all in place. It doesn't matter what you think of the man or his courses or style of architecture. I think Stone Harbor will forever be his folly and I think it irked him to the day he died that it was changed. But the thing that should be observed the most is that Mission Hills, host of the Dinah Shore Lesbian Festival (not that there is anything wrong with that) may also be one of his best, right alongside with Muirfield Village. (Pre-changes)

[Brian_Ewen]

Guys
Had an idea while posting this , that it would get a few responses !!! .

To be honest , as a Scot who loves quirky old links courses , I probably should abhor this course , yet I DO enjoy playing it and yes I do find some of it funny . Although I sometimes wonder if it because a lot of the other courses in the area are bland boring designs built on land that really is unsuitable for golf , for the reason of my enjoyment.

What I find strange is that Mr Muirhead designed another course in the area , roughly around the same time , called Century Banchang along with Nick Faldo .If you didnt know , you wouldnt think it was the same designer , none of the extremes of this design and I cant see any of the symbolism in it at all . Its a pretty straight forward design with some really nice par 3's across gullys.

I will try and post some pictures of Century Banchang soon , but the last time I was out there , it was very overcast and raining , and the pics didnt come out well and didnt do the course justice .

We are possibly being unfair to Mr Muirhead , commenting on the tree planting etc. . This has just been done in the last year or so and I am really unsure how much input he would have had into this . Although the rockeries have been in since it opened so...
I am also unsure how much visits he made to this area , as there was a lot of problems with the funding of the courses he was doing here .
I once e-mailed him about the Century course (The only Designer to reply to a query of mine)and he sounded rather bitter about his Thai expierence in general and seemed surprised that the courses were even open for play . I think he never recieved all the money owed to him for these courses.

A_Clay_Man ,yes that pretty well sums the first green , very short opening hole of 360 yards downhill .

The 17th is definitely not a biarritz , it is just an extremely sloped two tiered green . I have been up on the top tier and there was no way I could stop the putt going all the way to the front of the green . Maybe it is me but it was the yardage I didnt like at this hole . Last time I  played it , it was 204 yards (220 from the tips) plus it plays slightly uphill , that just seemed too long to me and it was really pot luck where you ended up .There was sand in the bunker to the right originally but it is now been turned into a grassy one.

Tommy , I think you summed up the course quite well . I always feel beat up after this course , I have yet to finish that bloody first par 6 ! , yet I still come off it with a smile on my face , for whatever reason.
I wish you had taken those prints as well .

I wish I had saved all of the stuff that was on Mr Muirheads website also . After his death it disappeared but I managed to find old articles through www.archive.org but they seem to have disappeared from here also .

I really do like sharing these photos of my trips and its a thank you to the others who do the same , and its what I really enjoy about this great discussion group.

All the Best
Brian

[Brian Phillips]

Tommy,

No harm meant at all, just a bit of mickey taking which you seem to have fallen for.  I put the bait out and you took it whole..

I have replied to your message and no I don't have a grudge on you at all about anything and thought the Design Fun thread was very funny, well, pretty funny.

I don't want to have a slanging match on this thread and please read the message so we can discuss, argue or cat fight behind the scenes...

Happy New Year..

Brian

[allysmith]

Brian,

Onve again excellently composed photos. You really do manage to get the essence of the holes captured.

Is the chap in the pictures the one and only N Munro ?

I am sure you have given a lot of thought to your opinions and I agree that the course is a litle 'contrived' but a couple of the holes look real belters especially the par three 10th. Still every oyster has a pearl!!

How about posting a few of your favourite holes in Thailand and see what the Designers think?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brian/Tommy,
I've seen that par 6 hole before at Silver Springs Shores GC in Ocala. It is the 18th there and a par 5 at 585 yds. There is a long tee, perhaps 50 yds or so, that runs along the dam,(what is the straight line in the photo) that lets shorter players get to either fairway. The course was built in 1970/71.
Tough hole.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brian,
Originally the other course was just called, the Century Club.

Desmond experienced two places where he he didn't lioke doing business, Thailand and Singapore (If Moth is reading, I'm sure he would be interested to know why) both because he had trouble collecting his money for these projects, and they were quite extensive.

If Desmond responded to you by email Brian, this was how:

You send the email, and then Ella, his long time and valued assistant would turn on the computer of this ancient, and I mean really ancient XT IBM clone computer (what they called them back then) and download it at a speed of about 14,400 kbytes per second. She would then print out the question  and then give it to him, which he probably took any where from five minutes to five weeks to answer it, in his short hand, which was close to unreadable, (only Ella could transcribe it perfectly) and back on the ancient computer she would go to send it back to you. I don't think there ever was an emailed unanswered unless Desmond knew and didn't like the character.

Most anyone would call this system flawed and not with the times. But it worked for them, and I do know for a fact that Desmond had a exact replcia of the machine in the ofice at home, and he took great pride in telling anyone that saw it that he had never ever turned it on, nor knew how! (When he said this, it was followed with a unusual loud chortle that was unique and pretty unforgettable.)

As far as the old articles, hopefully Forrest will backme up on this, undoubtedly they have been removed more then likely because of threat from Ed Pazdur of Executive Golfer magazine who has told me that he would legally fight any use of the articles from his magazine for a Desmond Muirhead tell-all biography. I think he is a wretched little shit, with little to offer the game other then a useless magazine that affords him to travel the globe in grand style, while writing about private facilities that are targeted for people who want to spend $250,000 or more for a lot, and then a membership. (His words)

[moth]

Tommy,

To the best of my knowledge, Desmond never did any work in Singapore-he may have for Singapore clients in other countries. Singapore is a small place and it is not easy to business here because the people have a somewhat "all-knowing" attitude, however if you have a contract you generally get paid....at least to the extent that you would in the US.

We have had great experiences and also got shafted in Thailand, but the place is great and the people very gracious - more a case of shafted by a person than a country.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Tommy:

My father (Doug) worked for Keith Dewar back in the late 60's and for most of the seventies.

During that period, Dewar construction of Palm Springs built nearly all of Jack's golf courses.

Dad was the project manager for both Desert Island and Muirfield Village.

Before he passed on, he told me lots of stories about working both with Desmond and Jack.

Even at Desert, Jack's first venture into "co-design" he and Desmond had trouble agreeing, but their joint ventures turned out quite well.

Just like Harbour Town did with Dye?

Dick

[Brian_Ewen]

Ally
Thank you for your kind comments , and believe me you have no idea how hard it is to upload stuff using a Thai internet cafe !.

Jim
I presume you were commenting on the first par6 (the 4th). Is the hole at Silver Springs Shores GC hated as much as this one . The biggest problem with it is the tee shot is far too long a carry across the water , I guess its about 220yards . but a lot of the golf played here is society golf including quite a few elderly gentlemen and it is just too far and too intimadating for them . The tee now has a sign on it stating that , you must drop on the other side to speed up play , after putting your first into the lake.

Brett
I have never played any of your designs in Thailand but I have friends who think a lot of Royal Hills GC , and I hope to play it some day.

Tommy
Thanks for all the info.

Brian

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Moth, I'm pretty sure it was Singapore because my cousin had similar problems in collecting from clients there, and I had more or less talked to the two of them about it. I don't think it was so much the goverment, but certain people in paticular. Some shady folks. Maybe this is why there are no Desmond courses there--they never got built.

Dick,
I was just reading about Desert Island and your Keith Dewar today. Desmond said in an Executive Golfer column that was about the construction of DI, "I contacted Keith Dewar,who has built many golf courses for me, and who was by then widely recognized as one of the best golf course builders in America, and who was later to build Muirfield Village. Keith had built Mission Hills in the previous year so he was familiar with the problems of building in the desert.

In that article, it was also quite interesting to read that Desert Island was built in GASP! Three months! Quite interesting really.

Also I do have the plans for that project, which was then known as Desert National.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brian,
Yes, the par 6 4th hole is the one. At SSSGC there is a very long tee running parallel with the dam that let's shorter hitters make the carry to the left fairway.
I don't think the hole would be loved no matter where it was located.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Ewen,

Those pictures make Sandpines look natural.

If those pictures were of a Rees or Fazio course, they would have been villified and there would have been 200+ posts excoriating and demonizing the architect.

This may be one of the biggest HOMER threads in the history of GCA.com.

Where's the self righteous indignation from the cognoscente  ?