[Tommy_Naccarato]

JNC, I don't think you are getting what I'm saying. Forget Seth Raynor for a second. Put him out of your mind. Don't think of MacDonald at the National either.

Give me one example where Thomas HASN'T given you an example of his INFLUENCE from the Road Hole. (Remembering that you did bring up #10 @ Riv in this, because that, I believe shows, some influence.

[JNC Lyon]

First of all, Riviera #10 was brought up only as an example to follow in building a great short par 4, not to elaborate on your original thoughts.
 
Secondly, I was speaking of the road GREEN itself, not neccessarily the strategy associated with it. I was merely stating that Thomas did not build the generic hole itself.
 I cannot give you an example of his lack of influence by it, because one example does not exist.
 
  In Geoff Shackleford's new book, he lists the Road as one of the four primary great holes which has influence on most golf strategy. The basic strategy is even shown in the iron layup at Riviera. If one dares the hazard on the left, one is rewarded with the best angle into the green. So it certainly had some indirect influence on my ideas for strategic design of a hole.

[Doug Siebert]

Peter pretty much captured the direction I was going along, so I'll use his suggestion as a starting point.  I'd make the C shaped green go around an inlet of water rather than a bunker, creating a go/no go option on the second shot when the pin is on the back part for those who play it safe and lay up off the tee and making sure that hitting it to 50 yards isn't necessarily better than leaving yourself a full wedge if you want to put it close.

I'd put a big depression (I'm talking 10-12 feet deep so that you can barely see the top of the flag from down there) starting from front left up to mid left to capture those who shy away and encourage hitting it a bit deeper.  No sand, just grass, preferably closely mown to allow the player to choose between a flop or a putt, as well as make it roll back to your feet for another try if you get too cute with it!  Make for an interesting recovery shot from there with the lake waiting behind!

Not sure about how much to shorten the holes, if at all, but I'd leave 3 shorter than 12.  Both should be potentially driveable, but you pay for the shorter shot to drive 3 by requiring a draw (or more of a draw, depending on how many trees on the left are removed)  You'd want the shot on 12 to be pretty much straight.  Doesn't sound like its an option, but I'd want the flag for 3 always on the front part (to encourage the draw drive to go for it) and the flag for 12 on the back part (to get the maximum fun from the difficult green complex)

I'd leave the fairway open, there's no reason to get nasty on the tee shot for those who lay up or can't manage the distance, all the fun comes in when you get around the green anyway.  No bunkers, no ridges, don't even try to make it narrow.  The wider the better, let the player choose the angle to play in from, there will be advantages and disadvantages from every angle, and from every distance.  I want the player standing on the tee thinking of a dozen possible options and not knowing which one is best.

Definitely want to cut down every tree on the right, give a nice view of the lake, both for aesthetics and intimidation.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

JNC,
I was trying to be critical, only trying to hilight what lot of people misinterpret. Your adding Riviera #10 as an example was the point I was tryingto impress, that its all about inspiration or ideas formulated from previous experiences, or to express certain qualities and formulate them to the what would work in a given situation.

Riviera #4 is a perfect example. It's not really a Redan, it's a modified Redan with the hillside as the ultimate containment/kicker that unfortunately doesn't work with Kikuya grass. It still doesn't mean I'm not going to keep on trying!  

[johnk]

This was fun.

I'd want to have a green that had some slope.  Not big tiers, but a smooth saddle, tilted so it's lower on the left than the right.

Brian - send me an email - I wrote last week - I want to connect with you and Ronan in May - either Ireland or UK!

johnk

[Tommy_Naccarato]

It would help if you put a link up there that would work.

[Frank Constanza]

This is Slag's version:

[Tony_Chapman]

It's official. The YaBB help actually works. Geez, if I only figured this out three hours ago.

[A_Clay_Man]

Why wouldn't a cut green work better? Similar to #5 at Pebble.

No offense Brian, but theres been this nagging voice in the back of my head. Who wants people practicing in their view on approach? Without some form of Barrier (trees) the action in my line of sight bothers me as it does when certain tees are placed on a similar line as the approach.

[Brian Phillips]

Adam,

That would or should be part of the design as well.  In my design I have planted trees to try to hide the old green.

Brian

[ian]

Here's my try, I was unclear on the trees and assumed the trees on the right were fair game. If not, they should be.

Merry Christmas Brian.

[A_Clay_Man]

Interesting rendition Ian. I don't think I've ever seen a sub 500 yard hole with three fairways. I do like the green labled 3. It reminds me of the 11th at Pebble without the back and other side bunkers. Surely this hole #3, has qualities that feel like "great", especially for such a short hole but i'm a mere novice at reading aerials or schematics.

[Tony_Chapman]

A few thoughts on my hole, since I didn't post them. But, before I start Adam makes a great point about the practice green. I would agree with wrapping some trees around there to "mask" the putting green. I wanted to keep the practice area up between the trees that Brian showed in his original design and the lone tree there was not moved from his original.

The hole I designed, moved the green forward to make it a clear "go for broke" hole. I wanted the green as near to the lake as possible and I wanted the Tiger player to have to clear a decent bunker to get his shot at the green. He would clearly be rewarded for getting over that bunker with a straightforward pitch.

I thought heavily about multiple fairways, but opted for this one with a central hazard to gobble up the pulled tee shot and make the player think about playing short and wedging to the green.

It was a must for me to remove the trees on the right and open up the playing area. I also cut the trees on the left by about half.

I would hope the green would slope gently front to back and also towards the lake.

Regards, Tony

ps - Ian, what kind of program did you use for your design. Very, very neat.

[ian]

Tony,

Corel Photo Paint 10.

Very friendly and easy to learn program. One good day playing with the program and you will be able to use it. When you really get into it, you can add cross-cut fairways and other texture mapping that really makes things look cool.

Only need to learn about four tools:
-A dabber to steal the existing colours. (touch and take)
-A clone tool to copy exactly in another spot
-A paint brush, which paints at any size in any tone (ie. you  
 can lightly apply black to create shadows
-text, applies like any other program

Tommy uses Adobe which is just as good too, I'm just not familiar with it.

ian

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I have been taking Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop classes this semester, and judging from what I have seen from Corel Draw compared to Illustrator, they both have their good points, but Draw is such an easier program to learn how to use, and its all based off of common sense--not where you have to go elsewhere to learn how to operate the program.

Its amazing how good both programs are when you do learn them the right way too. Someone who is a member of our esteemed forum, recently told me how he has mastered Photoshop. I told him he was full of _____ because that program is so far and away complicated, that a statement like that is just wrong. You should see some of the stuff I have seen in class--we are talking people that are being trained properly how to work this very complicated program--their work is flawless, and its ready for publication, its that good.

[tonyt]

Ian,

Awesome stuff. I really like them both. I LOVE #12. Both (particularly #12) have players standing on the tee with furrowed brow and heaps to think about if their execution (of either tee ball option) is poor. The essence of a tee shot on a great short par 4.

[Andrew Summerell]

Ian,

I like the way the safe drive on both of your holes leaves the more difficult approach. A drive hugging the trees on 3 & a drive close to the lake on 12 is of greater risk, but allows an easy approach & a good chance for birdie.

Nice risk & reward.

[Andy Levett]

Here's my effort:



The new green makes a short downhill par 4 even shorter – not much more than 300 yards from the back tee – so many players will fancy having a go at driving it. But the potential reward of a birdie or eagle has to be balanced against the risk of agua right and a tricky pitch anywhere left.

The left greenside sand and the angled green encourage even the player laying up to flirt with the water for an easier second but the bunker  short right is intended to make the heroic attempt with the big stick easier than it looks. The bunker is built into a mound, which besides raising it above surface run-off heading down to the lake also could be contoured to help shots towards the green.  Wilder efforts would be collected by the sand instead of  making the water.

The fairway bunker is positioned where the average player’s drive might land – it’s about 220 yards to carry – and on the line of charm. I suspect it would prove unpopular but add interest to the decision-making on the tee.

All the trees on the right have been taken out and a number on the left. Others have been left to retain the safety buffer for the parallel fairway. New trees have been planted to screen the practice area.

[Brian Phillips]

Finally, here is my proposal:



What do I like about my design:

It is simple.  It creates strategy on the tee and is cheap to build (something the club has stated is important).  The old green (hole) can still be used during construction.  The design is similar to the rest of the course and the exisiting hole.

What do I not like about the design?

I am still not sure about keeping the bunkers in the same position on the old green.  The bunkers can only be used when a teaching pro is around teaching as I would not trust the members skulling a shot across the new green or the fairway.

I want to put in a new tee similar to Ian Andrew's design but the club is still not keen or cannot afford it.

Brian

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thank you Brian,
You have given me full knowledge why mine is the best design for this project.

You know the tee belongs over there near the water giving it a seperation or different look reducing the monotony of playing the same nine twice. You realize the need for less bunkering, as mine only has one per say, in comparison to relatively low maintanence beach waste areas, and NO TREES, producing a lovely view of the water and its scenic back drop.

While Ian's proposal is bold and strategic, as well as an "A" for rendition in the art department; I feel with all of the bunkers, it makes it too costly to maintain.

Merry Xmas, and I'll accept my commission on this project with open arms.

Tell the club this is the way its going to be. SELL it to them. If they don't understand, use physical force. As Teddy Roosevelt once said, "If you grab them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow." I couldn't agree more.

[Norbert P]

 http://borregaardgk.no/BoGK/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=25

  Brian, will they allow any sort of fairway bunker? Even a little pot middle right at 200 to 220 meters would add some interest, bridle greed and introduce fate from the tee.  If possible, maybe push the trees back a bit from the new green for ventilation and sunlight.  

 On the link above, is 3/12 the hole at the very top of the course?

  BTW... What does 'slag' mean in Norwegian?  I see it as a repeated theme on 'scorekort'.

[Brian Phillips]

Slag,

It means shot or hit.

Here is another link which shows the view from the 12th tee.

http://borregaardgk.no/BoGK/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=29

I will give opinions on other designs shortly.

Brian

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brian,
Instead of giving your critique, how about introducing more holes on this course we can redesign. It looks like a pretty good site and its fun instead of trying to make it a competiton per say.

[Norbert P]

 Brian, thanks for that link as it helps with imagining.  They've got some nice stuff for you to work with.  Are any other areas of the course under scrutiny for amendment?

[JNC Lyon]

I looked at the website as well. I liked the par three across the lake and the par 4/5 around the lake. How about #6? What is the gap between those trees?

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