[Mike Hendren]

"There are many glaring errors seen on most of our courses, and one of the commonest mistakes is to have a green with a wide opening in front of it, and difficulties nearby, expecially beyond the green, or at its far sides; for a man who has fallen short of the green is thereby enabled easily to run his ball up to the pin, whereas the man who has made a bold stroke, possibly lighting on the green with his ball, and running over the green, is given a more difficult lie after a finer effort.  To offset this situation, it is advisable in many cases where there are long second shots to a green, to make a fairway beyond the green, so that the man who goes over has at least as good a chance to play back and near the hole as the man who falls short after an indifferent stroke."  - George C. Thomas, Jr.

Make it a good day.

Mike

[Rick Shefchik]

This quote raises the old question: for what level of player does an architect design a course? If he's designing it for the poor-to-average player, the trouble's beyond the green. If he's designing it for the good player, the trouble's in front of the green.

Where do you most frequently find trouble? Beyond the green, it seems to me.

Thomas seemed to believe the poor to average player deserves to be punished and the good player rewarded. That's a reasonable position to take, but can courses succeed if they're built for the top 5 percent of golfers?

[Brian Phillips]

Rick,

If you put a fairway chipping area at the back then I feel that this makes it easier for the lesser player because he or she can just use a putter to chip back to the pin.  However a chipping area creates confusion for the good player because there are too many choices.

What is the best shot? A chip...,a bump and run.., pitch, putt...chioces are sometimes the good players enemy.

Put a bunker there and it becomes difficult for the poor player not the good player.

Brian

[A_Clay_Man]

Interesting that GT says the green openings are an error, then he doesn't say not to do it, but give the same recoverability to the player that was aggresive, or at least didn't foozle one.

For me,This shows a realistic view that many who spot an error, don't have the patience for.

[Bill_McBride]

If you want to make it tougher on the good player, you put difficulty behind the center of the green.  It's a well known fact that 90% of golf shots (by 90% of golfers that is) are short due to consistent underclubbing!

[THuckaby2]

I'm with Bill... I always thought that due to underclubbing, trouble behind the green is irrelevant for most players... Rick, methinks you have some 'splainin' to do.  

As for GCT's quote, was this really a problem back in his day - not enough trouble in front, too much behind?  Damn it seems to me we really have the opposite situation today....

TH

[Rick Shefchik]

Tom -- Aren't we saying the same thing?

Trouble beyond the green is irrelevent for most poor players (excluding the bladed or skulled shot.) I read the quote as advocating more trouble in front of the green -- to punish poor players who underclub or foozle.

But Thomas says there's more trouble long on most courses, where the good players are going to find it. He thought that was a mistake, so I assume he'd like to inflict a little more pain on the high handicapper.

So my question is, would courses that consistently punish the poor player be good for businees?

[THuckaby2]

Rick:

I'm so confused... I read your first statement as saying the opposite as what you say now.  

"Where do you most frequently find trouble? Beyond the green, it seems to me."

I think most people find trouble SHORT, do to underclubbing.  As now I read that you say also... but if that's the case, what the heck did you mean by the statement above in quotes?  You confused the heck out of me, my friend.    Or are you just speaking to the scratch players?

And I read Thomas' quote to simply be advocating less trouble long... and I'm not making the logical jumps that you are... I don't read him saying he wants more trouble short... He wants to reward the bold player, yes - but I don't read him saying that along with this he wants to punish the timid... maybe this is assumed, I don't know.

In any case, courses that consistently punish the poor player sure wouldn't be good for business, as they'd quickly tire of the flogging, and there are way more of them then there are good players!  The trick is to somehow keep everyone happy.  

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

That is the kind of quote that made me vote for the Thomas book in the best design book competition here a while ago.  Because of that, I often will do a chipping area behind the green on long par 4 holes, now.

[Rick Shefchik]

Tom -- I get it now. What I meant when I wrote "where do you most frequently find trouble?" is that architects seem to place trouble most frequently behind the green, rather than in front of it. We're in agreement here -- most players don't go long very often. But if they do, it's usually worse than finishing short.

Splained?

[THuckaby2]

'splained most excellently, Mr. Ricardo.    My apologies for the density.  

And this does make the question tougher, in a way.  Yes, in most cases today a shot that goes long leaves one royally screwed, one way or another, and on a long two-shotter that just doesn't make much sense.

Damn that GC Thomas was a wise man, wasn't he?  

So how does one "fix" this?  The answer to me doesn't seem to make the trouble short harder... yes, the lower 'capper gets even more screwed this way... but the answer also isn't to eliminate all trouble completely....

Maybe the best long two-shotters have OPTIONS available, and give some interest and difficulty in the green itself as well?  Thus we keep GCT happy - as Jeff does - by allowing chipping areas long... but don't make the trouble short not exist at all.... and maybe give options to go around it or over it... and then create an interesting green with fine internal contour and voila, everyone seems to be happy.

Maybe?

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

I'm new to all this "in-print" stuff, but I doubt(can't imagine) GCT meant to punish the less skilled player who knew he was less skilled and would therefore startegically play away from the trouble?

My experiences loop'in showed me that the less skilled never thougt about anything other than pulling off the hero shot. i.e. A ball directly in front of the 14th at PB's left green front bunker w/ a Lft pin. I would have to convince them that the play was away from the pin to the lower right tier. The only ace up my sleve was the fact that putt, from the lower tier, is easier than it looks and that generally convinced them.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
GCT also appears to be an advocate of firm greens. He says:  ...."whereas the man who has made a bold stroke, possibly lighting on the green with his ball, and running over the green,......

Todays softer greens might not need as much thought for what's out back, even on long approaches.

[A_Clay_Man]

The best use of these "fairgreens" are at Harbotles "Stevinson Ranch". They seem to work very well with larger greens too. Creating depth perception difficulties.

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