[ForkaB]

One of the keys to reducing the cost of a Scottish golf holiday is flexibility and LACK OF planning.  If you are willing to take a bit of risk and choose the days and times you play your selected venues when on the ground, rather than back at home, you can pay less (as Brian says above) as well as have more opportunity for unexpected delights.  If you plan your vacation from A->Z before you leave home you will pay the "rack rate" for all your golf and accomodations.  For that you get security, but you lose the chance for chance encouters and pay the max.

Last July John Bernhardt and I walked onto North Berwick in the middle of the day and paid 40 quid.  My wife and I walked onto the Eden at St. Andrews near the end of the day in the early Spring and the starter just let us on for free.

If you can cope with uncertainty, the random golf vacations are always the best, at least to me.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

As many have hinted on in this site, it's not just the green fee; it's the whole package.  Most of you have to fly from the US or Australia to play our classics here in the British Isles.  You have to stay in hotels, you have to hire cars, you may well be dependent on a travel agent who has to make his profit and so on.

There have also been threads pointing out that some have been trying to scrounge rounds for their friends and colleagues by tenuous links through this site.

Is there not a way of developing a members' self-help travel site?  Were I to find myself travelling to Chicago or Brisbane, I could dial up a directory which would tell me what is available, basic background (esp. architecture), what it costs, whether it is worth taking the clubs.  I have several times tried to sell a pocket guide of this kind to publishers and failed.  I may have the knowledge for the British Isles and bits of Europe but I don't have the knowledge to write such a thing for the USA, Canada, Australia, South Africa, and all those countries we'd all like to know more about - Japan, South America, India and so on.  But, collectively, we who visit this site frequently probably have the corporate knowledge to cover the whole golfing world.  We would have to build such an archive mutually and the collected information would have to be available only at a price.  Surely, we would soon have the authoritative database to write the definitive guide to the world's worthwhile (not only in GCA terms) golf courses, something available in diary format at every airport in the world, let alone every bookshop and news-stand in the world, just like those pocket guides to wine.  Its profits would most certainly keep this site profitable in eternity, but probably also keep its contributors adequately recompensed for their input and effort.

Any thoughts?


Mark.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mark- I'm a bit skeptical on the end result of your idea. Like Rihc, I prefer to have less structure, which allows for the serendipitous. Your guide, if succesful, would be counter productive to the thrill of either finding hidden gems, or the chance of getting a reasonable rate. In other words, once the cats out of the bag, the hidden gem is no longer hidden. Please don't mis-understand me, your idea is probably a good one, but as someone who has seen the ruination of many a 'good thing' by the verbalization or promotion of same.

[Norbert P]

 On the whole... a very sobering article and thread.

 A man with a dream to build a golf course took his own life.
Obviously this is extreme but there's a powerful story in there regardless.

  Scotland and Ireland have more than great trophy golf. There is gowf. Honesty boxes. Highland cattle grazing. History. Wind. Scotch or Guinness. Wimmen with lilting voices. Haggis! and all-around great conversational people.

 

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark - I think your idea has great merit. A great deal of the threads on this site are devoted to advice on "where to play." So, obviously, there is a great deal of interest from the general readership on this topic. Just think of wealth of information that has been shared on this site about places to stay, courses, restaurants, and diversions. I am all in favor of trying to develop such an archive.

[THuckaby2]

One of the keys to reducing the cost of a Scottish golf holiday is flexibility and LACK OF planning.  If you are willing to take a bit of risk and choose the days and times you play your selected venues when on the ground, rather than back at home, you can pay less (as Brian says above) as well as have more opportunity for unexpected delights.  If you plan your vacation from A->Z before you leave home you will pay the "rack rate" for all your golf and accomodations.  For that you get security, but you lose the chance for chance encouters and pay the max.

Last July John Bernhardt and I walked onto North Berwick in the middle of the day and paid 40 quid.  My wife and I walked onto the Eden at St. Andrews near the end of the day in the early Spring and the starter just let us on for free.

If you can cope with uncertainty, the random golf vacations are always the best, at least to me.

Yeah, and if I'm a really good boy Santa will give me a membership at Cypress Point next year also.  

I say this as a smartass way of noting that of course Rich is correct - the more flexibility one has, the greater chance one has of the wonderful "chance encounters" that can occur that make trips like this great, and the less one is likely to pay.  BUT, if one has a life in reality, and has a specific limited number of days to allow for golf in Scotland (or anywhere), it's rather difficult to just play it by ear and hope.  Sure, one can get on N. Berwick for 40 quid, but one can also get blacked out of playing anywhere and just end up sitting all day and drinking whiskey.

Which, come to think of it, isn't that bad of an idea.  

Seriously, this is a great thought, but it's risky with a capital R.  Some might like that.  I sure as hell don't.  If I'm gonna make this kind of expenditure in dinero and marital capital, I want sure things for the golf.  I'd guess a lot of people are like this... we wish we could treat it like Rich says, but we can't afford to take the chance.

To each his own...

TH

[Brian Phillips]

Yeah, and if I'm a really good boy Santa will give me a membership at Cypress Point next year also.  

I say this as a smartass way of noting that of course Rich is correct - the more flexibility one has, the greater chance one has of the wonderful "chance encounters" that can occur that make trips like this great, and the less one is likely to pay.  BUT, if one has a life in reality, and has a specific limited number of days to allow for golf in Scotland (or anywhere), it's rather difficult to just play it by ear and hope.  Sure, one can get on N. Berwick for 40 quid, but one can also get blacked out of playing anywhere and just end up sitting all day and drinking whiskey.

Which, come to think of it, isn't that bad of an idea.  

Seriously, this is a great thought, but it's risky with a capital R.  Some might like that.  I sure as hell don't.  If I'm gonna make this kind of expenditure in dinero and marital capital, I want sure things for the golf.  I'd guess a lot of people are like this... we wish we could treat it like Rich says, but we can't afford to take the chance.

To each his own...

TH

Tom,

The only time you need to plan ahead in Scotland is if you are more than a fourball or want to play that miserable course next door to Gullane.

If anyone here is visiting Scotland and you are less than a fourball and want to save money (if that is important for the trip) then don't book a damn thing.

Haggle at the desk for a hire car

Haggle with the bed and breakfast people

Haggle with club or starter

Just haggle with everyone and basically relax.

If you want a perfect package do what Tom does...but that is soooooo boring...it means that you are tied up to tee times...

Go stay at that hotel in St.Andrews the Dunvegan that all Americans think is sooo genuine....thats a joke...pay prices that are higher than you should be paying...but you are not staying in St.Andrews...you are staying at an American run hotel, full of ....?  Americans...if that is what you want then do that.  When I travel I like to mix with the locals and the best way of doing that is avoiding the tourist hotels.

What happens if you end up drinking with a local that invites to his local club....?  No sorry I can't, I am stuck with Huckaby Tours Inc. and we have an appointment with wishy washy golf club tomorrow and it is costing me an arm and a leg but they say it is worth it...

Nah, don't book anything and let things happen and be prepared to drive a bit and live a little rough..

Brian

Ps Tom, I think you got your last sentence wrong.  It's not that you can't afford to do it his way it is that YOU can afford to do it your way.....

PPs if you get blacked out in the HOME OF GOLF then you deserve to be blacked out...

[THuckaby2]

Gee Brian, that was pretty harsh.  

All I am saying is that I agree with Rich, and now you - IF ONE HAS UNLIMITED TIME.  If one has only 7 days or whatever, some finite time, it's just rather tough to play it by ear, haggle, etc.  Yes you CAN achieve a fine Scottish golf experience that way - I know, I have - but you take a very serious chance of not getting to play many of the courses one really has one's heart set on.  Sure, that means you go elsewhere, and MAYBE you discover some hidden gem, and in any case you won't go wrong, there really aren't many BAD golf courses you'd end up at... You just will have missed the real biggies that fuel one's dreams.  Nothing hugely wrong with this, but many people do continue to want the sure thing.

And yes, one can always go back.  But again, that too isn't a reality for most people, for whom this is a once in a lifetime type trip...

As for hotels, jeez, lighten up.  I've been to all types there as well.  The Dunvegan works just for convenience and because Sheena will get you the tee-times you need.  But the rooms are tiny and it's filled with tourists... My advice is always to stay there, but drink elsewhere.

Cheers, Brian - many happy adventures to you and yours.
 

TH

[Michael Whitaker]

Brian - Where would YOU stay in St Andrews?
Tom -  Where would YOU drink in St Andrews?

[THuckaby2]

Michael:

My thoughts aren't so much where to go as much as just NOT wanting to do so at the Dunvegan, not for too long anyway.  At least when I was there it was nothing but Americans, which is not what I went to Scotland for.  

I've been to quite a few bars in that town, and I can't remember the names of any of them, because it's been too long since I was there AND/OR I spent too long in them, if you know what I mean.  

TH

[Norbert P]

Haggle at the desk for a hire car

Haggle with the bed and breakfast people

Haggle with club or starter

Just haggle with everyone and basically relax.

 Brian, great punchline!  It is a punchline, isn't it?

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

After re-reading the post outside fo my body it could read harse but it is meant with a certain amount of humour....just can't be bothered sometimes using those bloody smiley faces.

My point is this, I just cannot understand people going to Scotland or any country for that matter and not wanting to meet the locals.  I just cannot for the life of me understand what people see in the Dunvegan...apart from Tip Andersons plaque as you walk through the door...

I agree with you if you only have 7 days (which does not seem much if you are coming all the way from America) then pre-booking is the way.

However, if you have a ten day visit and it is just a couple of guys travelling together in a car then I would not book one damn thing.  I would look at the weather and decide from there where to go on the first car ride...

...another thing...nearly all of the Championship courses in Britain are great but are they worth the extreme money you have to pay....no.

I would much rather play Scotscraig, Elie or the like for £40-£50 than pay £80-£120 at Carnoustie or TOC anyday.

Micheal,

I haven't forgotten your trip and still promise to help you out.

Where would I drink in St. Andrews?  Anywhere but the Dunvegan...The Jigger Inn for one is better, that is where the European golfers drink after the Dunhill or anywhere up the main street.  The problem you are going to get is that it is a University town so it is full of young people and young pubs....I don't know how old Tom is but if he has been playing golf in Scotland since the 80's then the Dunvegan probably suits him...

Where would I stay in St.Andrews? Any Bed And Breakfast.  The one I stay in is called Shandon House.

http://www.shandonhouse.co.uk/

Tell that I recommended you and hopefully I will be able to get discount next time!!

Slag,

No it isn't a punchline, I just wrote it like that....

Cheers

Brian

No harm done Tom?

[THuckaby2]

Brian:

No harm whatsoever.

As you can see agree on this far more than we disagree!

One week seems to be a standard trip for a lot of Americans.  Hey, I concur, 10 days ought to be the minimum, but people do have jobs and kids and responsiblities so even taking a week is a lot for a lot of people.  And in that week, well... as you can see it doesn't leave much time for uncertainties.

I guess where we might differ is that I look at trips like this as once in a lifetime things myself, so for me cost is to be damned, at least to some extent.  That is, I'd sure rather play Carnoustie and TOC than Scottscraig, Elie or the like, at least on short visits like this, so cost be damned, that's where I'm gonna play - and as I said before, hell I live in California so none of them is all that much more than I'd pay for the standard issue CCFAD here!  And playing these "big names" requires pre-booking and planning for the most part, as you know.  Now if I went there 2-3 times a year, or lived there, then hell no I'm not gonna play those expensive famous courses - get me to Elie or Crail or Aberdour or anything else!  It's just a matter of perspective.

So assuming one has no real good idea when he's ever going to get back there, well... I'd advise the two guys in a car for a 10 day trip to pre-book the courses they really have their hearts set on, then leave a little room for leeway and adventure.  I just can't see doing what you say and not planning a damn thing - that's just too risky for my taste, and I can see these fellows coming home with lots of great stories, but wondering why they didn't get on any of the courses they had their hearts set on.  They will have had a great trip, no doubt, but will always wonder what if... Not a good thing if you never can make it back there, that's all.

So how about a little of both?  I did such on a big 3-week trip I made with my two best friends back in 1987, and we still talk about it to this day, it was that great.  The planned rounds were great because we saw what we wanted to see, the unplanned stuff was fun just for what happened.  I can't see it being better had we planned nothing...

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

Brian,

Methinks you are a little harsh on my good friend Thomas of Huckaby. Here is a group of guys with little time, not a cornucopia of money and a desire to play the courses they have dreamed about for years. They are travelling six thousand miles with all the attendant hassles that now entails. Why wouldn't that want a sure thing? As a younger man I travelled playing it by ear and had wonderful experiences; I also had a decent ration of time to do so.

Today, I feel like a little comfort and luxury, so I rent Strathtyrum House for a week. Does that make me  a Philistine?

By the way, we still agree on one thing, that "that ol' water meady' next door to Gullane.

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

I agree 100%

Brian

[THuckaby2]

Brian - very cool, no hassles.  I figure we agree that we both love the Auld Sod also!

And Mr. Huntley, thanks for the support... I'll even forgive the slander to that bastion of greatness next to Gullane.  

TH

[Mike Benham]

Brian and Tom -

All this bickering about how or how-not to do Scotland is perplexing ... I have key "must-plays" booked but enough afternoons or mornings open for the "TBD" courses, castles or pubs portion of the trip ...

Now if the US dollar exchange rate would stabilize, that would really make me happy.

Mike
 

[THuckaby2]

Michael:

Seems to me you have no reason for "perplexitude" - you are doing this absolutely perfectly, as I see it.  And I see it correctly.  

And hey, there's still plenty of time for the dollar to strengthen for you.

Eternally optomistic,

TH

[Keith Durrant]

Extending some of the ideas expressed above, if I have this "one week" and am based in the Edinburgh area, which of the following should be prioritised? I'm guessing one would be able to play up to 4 courses during one's visit. Any others that should be considered within an hour and a half's drive of Edinburgh? (Green Fee has to be below 75 GBP).

            Fee(GBP)

North Berwick   75
Gullane no.1   75
Blairgowrie - Rosemount   60
New Course   55
Dunbar   55
Jubilee Course   50
Ladybank   40
Craigielaw   40
Scotscraig   38
Lundin   37
Crail   30
Leven   27
Elie   
Dalmahoy   

[Doug Siebert]

Just a few comments about those courses I know.  Don't miss out on North Berwick if you've never been.  Anyone reading GCA has to go there to see the original Redan, Biarritz, etc. (as well as many other interesting holes that aren't copied so widely, but maybe should be on some of the overly formulaic resort courses to add some spice!)

If you get up to St. Andrews and have to choose between the New and the Jubilee, choose the Jubilee.  It is more interesting and challenging, easier to get on, you are more likely to play with locals on it, and you can use the money you save to go round the Himalayas a few times while you are there (and if you have your wife and/or kids along, they'd enjoy playing Himalayas too, even if they aren't golfers)

I really liked the new Crail (Craigshead) but I wouldn't put it up there with North Berwick, and don't know enough about the other courses you've listed to say where it'd be in such a list.  But you wouldn't go wrong if you chose to include it!

[Brian Phillips]

rottcodd,

I would go for the following:

North Berwick
Gullane No.1 (and Musselburgh on the way home for about £10)
Jubilee or New
Crail or Elie

Brian

[Sr Fortson]

I have made trips to Scotland almost annually since 1985 and have developed a system that works well for me.  It is a mixture of extreme planning and no planning at all.  First, I have found that going with just one other person helps in getting on most of the courses.  Second, going at the off-peak times also helps in getting on courses that are in demand.  I have visited from March through November and have been going for the last five years at the end of October into early November.  You would think that the weather would be horrible but I (for the most part) have been very lucky.  As an example, this last November I played at St Andrews on a beautiful sunny day and there were four straight tee times open on TOC.
  I prefer to stay at local B&B's as it provides the best value and allows one to get to know some locals.  Just a comment about The Dunvegan.  I find Jack and Sheena to be very gracious and have stayed there a few times.  However, for value I would go over to the B&B's on Murray Park and Murray Place.  They offer much better prices and are just as comfortable.  
  Now for how I plan my trips.  I always make reservations for my B&B in St Andrews, as they can fill up at almost any time of year.  Other areas I do a lot of investigating on the internet and contact some establishments, but seldom need to do advance bookings.  The same holds true with the golf courses.  I investigate and inquire in advance but seldom book.  By finding out what is available in a specific period of time you have the advantage of not being tied to a specific agenda if something comes up.  This is when just travelling as two becomes a real advantage.  B&B's are much easier to find when you are looking for one room as opposed to two, three, or even four.  The same goes for golf.  As for local restaurants and bars, your hosts at the B&B's are the ones who can be most helpful.
  By having done a great deal of investigating and inquiring beforehand, but not necessarily prepaying, you can enjoy a trip to Scotland that is well planned but also flexible.

[THuckaby2]

Sr. Fortson:  you and I would seem to be birds of a feather about this, which I consider an honor!  The mixture of extreme planning and no planning is how I like to handle these trips as well... that is, when I've done it with two or three players.  With big groups, one simply must do the extreme planning.  In any case the best trip I ever made was with two others, doing it pretty much exactly as you said... we had some tee times set up, at the more famous places like TOC, but we left a lot open also.  It worked pretty darn well and we talk about the adventures to this day.

I found Jack and Sheena at the Dunvegan to be very gracious and very nice also, so it pains me to rag on their place as I have been to some extent in this thread... My sense is you are very correct though that there are better values to be had elsewhere... It is just quite easy to book with them, and one would likely never have regrets staying there.

In any case, next time I go with just two or three, I am going to follow your advice to the letter.  This:

"By having done a great deal of investigating and inquiring beforehand, but not necessarily prepaying, you can enjoy a trip to Scotland that is well planned but also flexible."

would seem to me to be absolutely the best way to handle such a trip, for maximum enjoyment.

TH

[Robert Thompson]

Tom and gents: While I planned my first trip to Scotland in the spring to the nth degee, I'm going to leave some of my trip this coming April unplanned.
While I have Muirfield squared away, and will play North Berwick the day prior, I'm staying in St. Andrews for a week and plan to play some days by ear -- determining where to play (there are only three in our party) depending on the weather and the mood of the people in my group.

That said, like several of the past posts, I think a mixture of planned and unplanned rounds sounds like good fun. I must admit, given that I like to plan things and keep order, this goes against my nature. But due to the fact we'll be there in April, I'm not too worried about finding places to play -- including the Old Course.

Robert

[THuckaby2]

Robert:

Seems to me if you have Muirfield, N. Berwick and The Old Course squared away, the rest can be left to chance and you will have a hell of a great trip regardless.  Thinking like this is all I was ever trying to say way up above to Brian... It would be just VERY tough to play it 100% by ear, wouldn't it?

You may be able to tell I too like to plan and keep things in order... but the fun involved in chance encounters, as Brian and earlier Rich alluded to, cannot be denied.

Have a great trip!

TH

ps - the trip planned to the nth degree is never going to BAD, is it?  The one I did that way was a hell of a lot of fun also... My feeling is it's hard NOT to have fun over there - the golf and people and surroundings are so great.

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