Australia--Much More Then The Other Side Of The World

[The Spirit Of Ran]

The Sandbelt is a destination so many threaten to make, yet due to the isolation and the time away it would require to make a proper visit is undoubtedly why so many of us AMERICAN'S will never set foot there.

What is it going to take to make some of us make this trip, or "Giant Step" in our education of Golf Architecture?

What is preventing us from making it?

Ozzie's please do not hesitate to add your thoughts!

[Tom_Doak]

O, great spirit of Ran,

All of those contemplating a trip to the Sandbelt should wait until after September 15, 2004.  Then you'll have a couple more great courses to see in Australia ... St. Andrews Beach and Barnbougle Dunes.

Hopefully they will provide the impetus for a few more of you to make the trip.

[Mike_Clayton]

As Robert Allenby said at a Presidents Cup a few years ago 'Americans are like a bag of old prawns - they just don't travel well !'

Melbourne really isn't that far away. Just get on a plane in LA and go to sleep. When you wake up you will be there.
I have been to Sand Hills each of the last two years - it isn't really that far away from here and like Royal Melbourne it is obviously well worth the trip.The world is a small place these days.
Also despite your lousy sliding $ it is still pretty cheap down here

[Andrew Summerell]

Tom & Mike,

As an Aussie, I've got to say I can't for St. A & Barny's to be finished. I saw some pictures that Greg posted of Barny's & it looked great.

Are you still on schedule with both ?

To those Americans wishing to make the trip, Melbourne is a great destination for golf as so many of it's great courses are so close together. RM, KH, Metro, Vic, Woodlands, Yarra Yarra & so on.

Unfortunately, I live in Sydney. So all I have to play is NSW.

[peter_p]

  Three weeks should be the minimal vacation time. I've been over there twice, both time to play in amateur tournaments, and will return. Spent a month the first time, three weeks the second and still haven;t gotten to Perth, Brisbane or Queensland.
  Most of the US population is in the midwest and east, and you don't find many travel agents there with expertise in Australia, or their golf. The golf travel companies as a rule don't have Australia itineraries.
  AU is a great winter escape from the snow, but the ones who have the free time Nov-Mar already have moved to the warmer parts of the US.
  Bottom line, get US travel agents who can set up golf trips
thru AU contacts. Make a half hour video and put it on The Golf Channel.
   

[The Spirit Of Ran]

Sir Thomas of Doak,

I want you to know that I see what you are doing--three trips down under in three successive years, and if one wants to attend, this is what its going to take! Now answer me this, where am I supposed to find the time to go to England and study Heath?

Mike Clayton,

If I went to sleep on the plane from Los Angeles, I would get thrown out of it for snoring. Do you actually think with all of that anticpation that I would be sleeping anyway?

[The Spirit Of Ran]

Peter,
You also bring up a good point!

What would it take to get the Dueling Doyens to go down unda?

[Richard Chamberlain]

Tom,

We're all really excited about the additions of these two potentially great courses, but could we please have a thread on Aussie golf without plugging them.

[Tim_Weiman]

My problem has always been that about every three months I get this deep longing to be in Ireland and act on that longing frequently enough that it doesn't leave much time for adventures "Down Under".

Moreover, after twice walking Inch this year, my condition probably got worse. The place is just so amazing to walk and fantasize about golf holes being built, that along with Ballybunion it is now in my mind almost everyday.

Rupert O'Neal summed up Inch by saying "the place is unfair to other golf courses". Well, I'll just have to put that aside and finally make it to Aussie land!

[Steve Lapper]

As someone who has traveled "down under" multiple times (and mostly to NZ for past skiing related competitions), this thread always intrigues me.

  Only on my last two trips did I finally spend any real time on the golf courses and I now sit here, in snowy NJ, dreaming and jonesing to get back to the Sandbelt and Tom's new sites.

(Dr. Kildare.....the last thing Tom should ever be accused of is shameless plugging! He is merely trying to remind many here that two new, EAGERLY ANTICIPATED, courses will open in fall 2004....That is a service...not a plug...what part did you not understand?)

   Too many US golfers are sooo enamoured of Ireland and Scotland and so ignorant of what Mike Clayton so simply stated (get on a plane in LA, go to sleep, wake up in Sydney) and they consequently miss so much.

    Down under golf is AWESOME, interesting, accessible, affordable, variable in architecture/demand/geography and culture. The country is so damn user friendly and so diverse in style. Only in Australia can you go from all-world golfing, hop on a relatively short flight and end up snorkeling in the world's greatest natural aquarium. I miss the damn place!

   Sure Ireland and Scotland are nice, fun and certainly worthy, but Aussie golf is what I dream of every day. Once my daughter gets up to age 5 ( a little over 4 years from now,) I intend to go back for an entire month! Nary a month goes by when I don't think of what my rota will look like that time.

Go get on a plane!

[THuckaby2]

What keeps me from going to Australia?  Realities of life.  The flights are way too expensive and take way too long, and I just don't have three weeks at a time to devote to golf.

I'd guess a lot of Americans are this way... we SEE how great the golf is, we just can't make it happen.

Some day... dare to dream...

TH

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Careful Dr. Kildare.  You must first consider WWDRD

What Would Donald Ross Do, the epitomy of golf architecture humility before casting dispersions on one of "The Anointed".  

By the way to keep within the Brad Klein decree, I hope to visit Australia sooner, than later!

[Tim_Weiman]

Slapper/Tom Huckaby:

It may seem off topic, but a couple years ago during a quick, unexpected visit to Chicago Golf Club I wound up having dinner with someone who worked in strategic planning for United Airlines.

My interest in speaking to him was to get his perspective on Boeing vs Airbus, specifically Boeing's study of a commerical aircraft that wasn't quite as fast as the Concorde, but was designed with long range Asian travel in mind. (I think the speed was in the 800-900 MPH vs the 747 and Airbus' coming monster flying in the 550 MPH range.)

Honestly, my curiousity about this airplane all related to golf in Melbourne and the potential to significantly reduce travel time. This gets into what I'll call the "emotional" aspect of golf related travel.

Years ago I was content to just go and check out as many courses as I could. But, as I got older, that desire began to fade. It was probably due to making friends in Ireland. I just began to think of the game in more "social" terms than purely architecture.

Part of what has kept me away from Australia is the sense that, practically speaking, it is not a place one can easily go to several times a year (like one can Scotland/Ireland - especially from the US East Coast). So, this makes it hard to think of it in "social" terms; when I go to Ballybunion there are just numerous people I want to sit down and have a good talk with, not just play golf. In fact, on my last trip I did some caddying - for the 1968 Lady Captain - but didn't actually play, despite being there for about five days.

I know Slapper is right. So is Mike Clayton, I'm sure.  How could one look at the effort by Paul Daley and Dave Scaletti and think otherwise?

So, maybe it is Tom Doak that can finally get some of us Americans - those who should have made the journey long ago - to finally come down under.

P.S. A couple years ago I ran into a fellow from the grounds crew at Royal Melbourne. Naturally, I did so at Ballybunion where I proceeded to give him a tour of the Old Course. So far, that is the closest I've come to the course I'd most like to visit. Shame on me!

[THuckaby2]

Tim:

All the Doak courses in the southern hemisphere aren't going to shorten the flight time, change the international date line, or cheapen the air fares...

Maybe I'm off base, but all of those things make Australia problematic for us, at least relative to the UK, which is made easy for us in so many ways.... Hey, I hope Boeing does create what you describe... and United makes it cheap for us!  I'm not holding my breath though.

It's not the desire, it's the logistics.

Get those Boeing guys to make a Concorde-like plane that gets us there for the same price as a flight to London, and I'll sign up today.  If it allows me to make some Aussie friends, all the better as they are the only people worthy of standing up with the Irish.  

TH

[NAF]

I'm probably the only one here who has been married to an Aussie (formerly!) except Ran but I think his wife may be a kiwi raised in Oz..Believe me it matters, the kiwis are very proud of who they are.. Anyway, I've been to Oz I think 4 or 5 times and spent a few months in total there and to Enzed (New Zealand) once.  For a now single guy, I can think of no BETTER place on earth so why the heck do I live in New York?

Anyway, I digress..I can't believe people like Tom Huckaby would go to Scotland/Ireland before Australia. The fares have to be similar and flight times basically the same!  Australia may be 2 hours further tops.. And coming home is quicker too.!  I made my Aussie pilgrimage last year and will be doing it again and hitting what I guess will be known as "The Doak Trail" at the end of 2004.  If any of you are interested in joining me let me know.  I also want to meet up with Chris Kane and ShaneG who I didnt on my last trip..

Australia has great food, people, nightlife, scuba diving, national parks, golf and is cheaper than the U.S. by about 15% I reckon.  The UK is still one of my favorite places (if not my favorite) on earth and while Oz doesnt have Deal or St. Enodoc I am waiting to see if Tazzie and Cape Kidnappers made a great rival!

[THuckaby2]

NAF:

When I last studied this two years ago, the flights were a LOT longer, and more importantly, the air fares were from twice to three times as much.  For us for whom money matters, these were deal killers.  Perhaps times have changed... I hope so.

Believe me, it's not the quality of the golf or the quality of the people - for both, I want to get down there and BAD.

The realities were prohibitive, for me anyway.

Ireland is also home, and Scotland is the home of golf.  Those were always going to happen before Australia for me, and for a lot of other people, anyway.  The financial and time realities just seal the deal.

TH

[Steve Lapper]

Careful Dr. Kildare.  You must first consider WWDRD

What Would Donald Ross Do, the epitomy of golf architecture humility before casting dispersions on one of "The Anointed".  

By the way to keep within the Brad Klein decree, I hope to visit Australia sooner, than later!

Kelly,

   You too are one of the "Annointed Ones" in my book! I didn't take you to task for recommending Hawk Pointe in the recent NJ thread (because I thought you were earnest in your advice). In fact, I sang its praises but cautioned against un-realistic driving times. I sense Tom was just excited about the addition of those tracks to the great golf already down there.

You do have to get down to Oz...it is worth it!

Tim,

   Like you, I wish there was a SST direct to Melbourne, but alas there is not. I will repeat it, like NAFFER did; it is much easier to travel to Oz than it appears. It is an overnight flight from LA (one can easily leave the East Coast at 11am and arrive, well-rested in Sydney the next morning. The trip home isn't that bad either. No matter, it is really well worth it.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think Australia and New Zealand will be during my 50's what  Pebble Beach was to my 30's and Scotland/Ireland was to my 40's. Once I go, I will have to return over and over again with a sense of wonderment on why I did not start coming there sooner. My daughter starts to college next year and I believe December is a great month to blow the US for the land downunder.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Slapper,

My recommendation on that thread was in humble service to my client!

[Tim_Weiman]

I neglected to mention that the Boeing/United study didn't go anywhere. Analysts just couldn't find a way to make it economical. I know little about the economics of aviation, but apparently there is a tradeoff between speed and size (passenger count).

Thus, Airbus is going forward with their jumbo that seats about 550 people but it doesn't fly much faster than the 747 - technology that is now 30-40 years old.

In terms of airfares, flights to Shannon or Dublin out of New York get down to around $300 during the winter months, run $400-500 ish during shoulder seasons and $800-900 ish during the peak period.

Can anyone summarize what LA - Melbourne flight/fares look like, including seasonal variations?

[THuckaby2]

Slapper:

I just looked all this up on expedia, and well... flights from SF to Melbourne tend to take 2 days real time.  That is, you leave on the 6th in the am, arrive on the 8th in the am.  You do gain the day coming back, such that you tend to arrive pretty much right when you left, but that two day lag time at the beginning is a logistical killer.

The cheapest flight I could find in January was around $2000, also. (sorry Tim, I have no access to seasonal variations).

You don't want to know the contrast to UK and Ireland right now - Tim's fare listing is right on.  Of course that is due to high season in Oz, low season in UK, but still....

It's just not so simple to say "just do it, the flights are easy."  They're not and they are expensive.

I don't want to be Mr. Downer here, as I say I want to get to Oz and bad, but someone has to give the reality check!

TH

[ChasLawler]

a quick glance at expedia.com:

LAX to Melbourne (February): $1400, 17 hours

LAX to Dublin (June): $860, 13 hours

LAX To London (June): $670, 12 hours

BWI to Melbourne (February): $1830, 24 hours

BWI to Dublin (June): $710, 12 hours

BWI to London (June): $575, 10 hours

*all flights are round-trip with a 2 week stay (Sat-Sat)

[NAF]

LA to Sydney or Melbourne is about 13.5ish hours, 14 tops...It isnt 2 day jet lag, you lose a day over the international date line!  it is NOT 17 hours, I've done the trip 5 times!

I would have to think LA to Scotland is at least 11-12 hours..  From NY going to Oz, this is trek but not from the west coast..

Qantas often runs $999 specials from California to Oz..also, I've never paid more than $1400 for a coach ticket from NY when I flew down there.. I admit, the fares are cheaper to Europe as there is more competition but here is one thing, you'll get SUNNY weather in Oz!

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, Rannulph.  Those fares and times are a LOT closer than I thought they ever would be!  

It still doesn't change my mind, but I am leaning toward being less negative.


 

TH

[Steve Lapper]

Slapper,

My recommendation on that thread was in humble service to my client!

Touche. One could make the same argument for any archie recommendation...right? Regardless, HP is a very good place and I'm quite a fan...but that could also be said about many places...just will have to keep winnowing the field