Donald Ross

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
It goes without saying that Ross wasn’t able to provide the necessary time on site (if any) at many of his projects to do his best work. Not sure how you could argue with that when you yourself said how many projects he had going on.  If C&C or Tom Doak took on that much work, could they really be spending the time necessary (as they do now) to make each course with their name on it the best it could possibly be???  I can 100% guarantee you having talked with Bill Coore many times that he would laugh at that idea. Bill might spend multiple days if not weeks on one hole to get it right.  Ross on the other hand might have stopped for a 1/2 day visit and handed over a routing plan before moving on to his next project. Nothing further needs to be said in a case like that about how perfect he was trying to make that particular golf course.  The owner knew what they were getting and so did Ross and both parties were usually happy. Ross was mass producing golf courses with his name on them and he was ok with that. As such without question the quality will vary. 

Carl,
Didn’t know you were joking.

Mark:


You're ignoring the request to provide examples of courses where Ross didn't visit the site.  Until you do, please stop repeating that misguided refrain.


He travelled 25 days a month, that's 300 days a year, on an average of 30 or so projects a year.  That's around an average of 10 days per project (including travel time).  Quite a bit for someone who didn't have the benefit of hopping on a plane. 


I'll fully concede that things were different back then.  This was during the greatest period of development of golf courses this country has ever experienced and accordingly the demand for architects was much greater.  Especially so for Ross, who was considered the top of the field. 


I'm not taking any exception to the thought that on some projects he wasn't as involved as Bill Coore is today with the work he takes on.  I'm taking exception to the fact that you continually state Ross didn't spend any time on site for many of his projects (or "mailed it in") without providing any evidence of him ever doing so.


If you'd like to put in a bit of time to do the research, here's a good place to start -


 [size=78%]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65481.0.html[/size]


Sven

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
As I said earlier, I am traveling (on a golf course as I try to type this ) and not at my office. Grab a copy of Brad’s book as I believe he lists a bunch of courses Ross never visited or was there only for a quick peak.  Brad is clearly aware of “all the new evidence” and as of last night he still believes Ross spent little if any time on 1/3 of the courses accredited to him.

Note:  We often talk here about how panelists only get one look at a golf course and then try to determine how good it is.  That is really hard if not impossible to accurately do.  But can you imagine trying to “design a great or even a marginal golf course” on a 100 plus acres of undeveloped property with just one quick visit!!!  What do you expect you are going to get

[Joe Hancock]

Mark,


I have to imagine there is still a pretty high level of design input from Donald Ross on those 1/3 of Ross-accredited courses that he spent little, or no time on, supoosedly. I wonder, then, who should be accredited with those courses, or how so many could be so good without ample input from Mr. Ross…..


I’m in awe that Ross did so many projects with way above average results. His ability to communicate his visions must have been terrific.

[Kyle Harris]

Mark,


I have to imagine there is still a pretty high level of design input from Donald Ross on those 1/3 of Ross-accredited courses that he spent little, or no time on, supoosedly. I wonder, then, who should be accredited with those courses, or how so many could be so good without ample input from Mr. Ross…..


I’m in awe that Ross did so many projects with way above average results. His ability to communicate his visions must have been terrific.

If anything Donald Ross was adept at keeping "the thing" the thing. You have to build 18 greens. You have to locate them. Focusing all your attention there, on site or from afar, will yeild good results.

[Sven Nilsen]

Grab a copy of Brad’s book as I believe he lists a bunch of courses Ross never visited or was there only for a quick peak.

I'm very familiar with the course listing in Brad's book.  At this point it is very outdated.


For your clarification, Brad's list has an "On Site Confirmed" column, which is very different from confirmation of Ross never visiting a site.


There are a number of courses that aren't checked in Brad's list for which confirmation has been found since he compiled the list.  There are also a good number of courses where he hasn't confirmed Ross being on site for which, based on the location and timing, there is no reason to doubt that he was.  Traveling 300 days a year and hitting many of the same locales repeatedly (Massachusetts, North Carolina, Florida, Michigan, etc. and everything on the train routes in between) the safer assumption is that he did visit.


Sven

[MCirba]

I would only add that the Ross drawings I've seen are almost invariably very detailed in every respect and would not have been difficult for an onsite construction crew to carry out.   This includes routing maps, hole designs, and greens and features drawings.

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
Ross was without question one of the greatest architects ever.  I am definitely not questioning that. His body of work is unbelievable but at the same time it varied widely in quality.  If anyone here thinks all 400 or more of his courses were 7-10s I hate to burst your bubble but they are sadly mistaken.  The variation in quality is probably proportional to his time on site/level of personal involvement. I have been privileged to play many of his courses as well as work on some of his best like Oyster Harbors in MA where the greens are as good as anything I have seen on the planet. But then I will go to another “Ross course” where you just shake your head and wonder, “did he really see/approve something like this?”Yes most of his courses are better than average, but outside of his well know ones, you never know for sure what you will find when you visit a Ross design. 

Mike,
My guess is you are looking at plans for his higher end designs. There are many of others where the detail in the plans is not there. I trust you have seen some of them for comparison purposes. Maybe someone here can post examples. 

I am a huge fan of the golden age architects and love classic designs as much as anyone but it is not like every course they did was sacred and never to be altered. Far from it even for someone like Ross.

[MCirba]

Mark,


At the risk of offending some courses/clubs, it might help to name specific cases where a Ross course is in that "3" range because I can only think of 1 I played that hasn't been significantly altered over time or otherwise poorly maintained that falls into that category.


But even with that course, as modest (and nearby to us) as it was,  a complete, detailed set of Ross green plans has been found in recent years and the most likely scenario is the owner really never had money to fully implement what Ross conceived, likely due to the depression.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Maybe look in the Confidential Guide and see if there are any Ross courses mentioned that are in that 3-5 range.  But I know Tom mostly seeks out the best designs which is understandable. 

[Bradley Anderson]

It's been awhile since I have posted in GCA, but from what I have experienced I have a sense that Holston Hills, French Lick, Franklin Hills, Rackham and Burlington CC in Vermont are still very close to what Donald Ross had originally built.

[Tim Martin]

It's been awhile since I have posted in GCA, but from what I have experienced I have a sense that Holston Hills, French Lick, Franklin Hills, Rackham and Burlington CC in Vermont are still very close to what Donald Ross had originally built.

Although the routing is still intact to the best of my knowledge Burlington CC was tampered with extensively over the years. I can’t speak to what was done by Mike Hurdzan a while back or the more recent work by Northeast Golf Company but I know that the bunkers and greens had been changed significantly from Ross’s original design. Looking to get up there later in the year to check out the 2025 version.

[Tom_Doak]

He travelled 25 days a month, that's 300 days a year, on an average of 30 or so projects a year.  That's around an average of 10 days per project (including travel time).  Quite a bit for someone who didn't have the benefit of hopping on a plane. 

Never mind Ross's designs.  He travelled 300 days a year?  I find that difficult to believe but if he managed to do that for even a few years that is more impressive than anything I know about him.  I have traveled 150-180 days per year for many years now and I can state with authority that once you get up above 150, every extra day counts double in the toll it takes on you.


P.S. to Mark:  I cannot think off the top of my head of a Donald Ross course that only received a 3 on the Doak Scale.  If it's got a good routing and a good set of greens, it's not going to be a 3.  But as you said, I don't go around looking for the 3's.

[V_Halyard]

It was the late Tom Weiskopf in the early 1980s, who, lamenting the changes to Oak Hill and Inverness, suggested there should be a "Society for the Preservation of Donald Ross Courses".

Note the word he used.

Instead, we got a Donald Ross Society that often recommends architects to consult at clubs and "restore" them.  I don't think that's what TW had in mind.

Still, it boggles my mind if there are no great Ross courses left that are good examples of preservation.  There must be some that have not gone under the knife??

The first that come to mind are in upstate NY -- Glens Falls and Teugega, and also Longmeadow in MA, but maybe someone has gotten to these now.

Tom,

I take direct issue with this as the Current President of a very active Donald Ross Society.
Your inference is inaccurate on all accounts. We are ardent defenders of the GCA on a project and reccomend clubs not proceed without one. I personally contact folks on your team with regard to Ross and no Ross projects with which Im involved.
Ross Society respects and invite all architects to actively participate and present at all of our current events. We don't recommend GCA's but will give historical opinions when asked to contribute. But we will call bullshit on something that is off the rails.

Perhaps you may be referring to some incident in the past.
For all current research, events,  activities I personally extend an invitation to the architects, including those on your team and associates, to join and share accurate and current information and approaches.
Given schedules, you and members of your team have chosen to pass due to time constraints, which is understandable.
We did that for our most current outing at Skokie which was attended by Myself and Dan Moore who shared an outstanding accounting the L&M contribution and history. Kyle Franz, Jason Straka, Kris Spence, Drew Rogers, Jim Nagle, Ron Forse and Ron Prichard and others have joined us to make sure we had the accurate accounting as share by the GCA on with Ross Related Projects.

Your inference is inaccurate and again perhaps based on a past experience with which I and unfamiliar.
Going forward, if you ore your team have any issues with any representations or communications made by the Donald Ross Society, feel free to pick up the phone and return a call or text.   You have my number.

Vaughn

[Mark_Fine]

Vaughn,
What is your opinion about Brad Klein’s comment?  Also do you feel most of Ross’s courses are in the 7+ catagory? 


I know his batting average is high but he didn’t get a hit every time he was at bat. 


Best,
Mark

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