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MCirba

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2025, 07:19:31 PM »
I've heard good things about the amount of Ross left at Portland CC (ME), but haven't personally had the opportunity to see for myself yet.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Hal Hicks

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2025, 08:00:28 PM »
I've heard good things about the amount of Ross left at Portland CC (ME), but haven't personally had the opportunity to see for myself yet.


Somebody stated it earlier, it seems the true Donald Ross courses left seem to be the ones that did not have much money spent on them over the years.  Seems to be the common denominator!  Hope they remain that way with only minor adjustments for agronomic reasons!

Hal Hicks

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2025, 08:02:13 PM »
Neither  George Wright in Boston or Triggs in Providence have much money beyond basic maintenance. I am not aware of any significant architectural changes at either of these, but I certainly could be wrong. They both have had significant tree growth, but besides that are the courses essentially as they were designed?


Kudos to them for not making major changes!  Love true Donald Ross courses!

Joe Hancock

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2025, 08:48:12 PM »
The former Ionia CC (MI), now known as Shadow Ridge, has 9 holes of untouched Ross. It never gets attention because a) it’s 9 holes and b) it’s in Ionia.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kyle Harris

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2025, 09:16:13 PM »
Miami Valley in Dayton, OH.


And how much benign neglect is preservation v. erosion?


Must an architect be involved to lose a Ross?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

JNC Lyon

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2025, 09:33:06 PM »
Neither  George Wright in Boston or Triggs in Providence have much money beyond basic maintenance. I am not aware of any significant architectural changes at either of these, but I certainly could be wrong. They both have had significant tree growth, but besides that are the courses essentially as they were designed?


Would to do research on it, but from playing it in 2023, it didn’t seem like there were big changes from the original. Hell of a true municipal golf course too.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2025, 09:38:34 PM »
Must an architect be involved to lose a Ross?


It definitely makes it easier. Setting the abominable renovations of the 50s to the 70s aside (because they have largely been reversed to some degree), the sneaky “lost Ross” is often a renovation that masquerades as a restoration but just uses the same rolled down faces as every other restoration. Often these bunkers don’t match what the course originally looked like. It’s like designers just stared at that picture of Salem Country Club for an hour and decided “that’s what a Ross looks like!” Some did, but definitely not all.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

mike_beene

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2025, 09:51:04 PM »
It is split into half of the east and west, but how much has the Ross 18 at the Broadmoor really changed? I have been there some, but really don’t know the history.

Sean_A

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2025, 01:35:33 AM »
I don’t believe Grosse Ile G&CC has changed much. The hole numbering is different, a few greens altered and some bunker issues. But much more than the essence of an original Ross exists. I say this every time I mention Grosse Ile…still one of the finest sets of greens I have played.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 04, 2025, 06:47:40 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Wentworth Edinburgh, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty, Dumbarnie, Gleneagles Queens and Carradale

Tom_Doak

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2025, 06:34:03 AM »

the sneaky “lost Ross” is often a renovation that masquerades as a restoration but just uses the same rolled down faces as every other restoration. Often these bunkers don’t match what the course originally looked like. It’s like designers just stared at that picture of Salem Country Club for an hour and decided “that’s what a Ross looks like!”


This is accurate but you're really describing a construction problem, as much as an architecture problem.


In theory every architect could present the same master plan for a restoration -- what was actually built.  What you've described is the execution of the shaping, and the success of any restoration is all about that.


Many architects rely on contractors, and many clubs choose contractors who have past experience restoring a course by Donald Ross, and you can see where that tends to lead.  That doesn't absolve the architect for supervising C+ detail work, but if everyone else involved is more concerned about staying on schedule [which for the contractor equals making more profit], C+ shaping is what you're going to get.


And honestly, even the A-level shapers tend to build things that look like their own work, as much as they look like any particular architect's, unless they are very conscientious and feel that a particular course needs something different.

Kyle Harris

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2025, 07:28:19 AM »

the sneaky “lost Ross” is often a renovation that masquerades as a restoration but just uses the same rolled down faces as every other restoration. Often these bunkers don’t match what the course originally looked like. It’s like designers just stared at that picture of Salem Country Club for an hour and decided “that’s what a Ross looks like!”


This is accurate but you're really describing a construction problem, as much as an architecture problem.


In theory every architect could present the same master plan for a restoration -- what was actually built.  What you've described is the execution of the shaping, and the success of any restoration is all about that.


Many architects rely on contractors, and many clubs choose contractors who have past experience restoring a course by Donald Ross, and you can see where that tends to lead.  That doesn't absolve the architect for supervising C+ detail work, but if everyone else involved is more concerned about staying on schedule [which for the contractor equals making more profit], C+ shaping is what you're going to get.


And honestly, even the A-level shapers tend to build things that look like their own work, as much as they look like any particular architect's, unless they are very conscientious and feel that a particular course needs something different.


Or it’s just a cookie-cutter approach to a project.


Which is somewhat ironic as a good chunk of the Ross being worked on was the result of a Donald Ross cookie-cutter approach to a topo map interpreted in the field by a McGovern or a Maples or a James or Harrison, et. al.


And then there’s the Ross where he is the primary architect of record but only added 9 or renovated an existing course. There was probably more Willie Park, Jr. at Schuylkill CC than Donald Ross. Definitely more Bendelow than Ross at Palma Ceia. Yet we don’t talk about preserving those facets of the golf course left alone by Ross.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Richard Hetzel

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2025, 07:48:13 AM »
How about Asheboro Municipal?


I have played the front 9 at Fort Mill (it's fun) and Elk Rapids up in Michigan. Not much to change at Elk Rapids TBH, it's a minimalist nine holes of golf.
Favorites Played in 2024:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI), AIken GC (SC), Fort Mill GC (SC)

Richard Hetzel

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2025, 07:48:57 AM »
I don’t believe Grosse Ile G&CC has changed much. The hole numbering is different, a few greens altered and some bunker issues. But much more than the essence of an original Ross exists. I say this every time I mention Grosse Ile…still one of the finest sets of greens I have played.

Ciao


Fun course with GREAT greens!
Favorites Played in 2024:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI), AIken GC (SC), Fort Mill GC (SC)

Tommy Williamsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2025, 08:14:44 AM »
I don’t believe Grosse Ile G&CC has changed much. The hole numbering is different, a few greens altered and some bunker issues. But much more than the essence of an original Ross exists. I say this every time I mention Grosse Ile…still one of the finest sets of greens I have played.

Ciao


Sean, I played GI after Paul Albanese did some work in 2022. Do you know what he did?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2025, 08:16:18 AM »
It might be fair to ask how many courses were Donald Ross originals when they opened? He left much of the work to others.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ryan Book

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2025, 08:52:51 AM »

One of my rare insights...Alex "Nipper" Campbell was involved in a greens project at MVCC as soon as he arrived as superintendent during 1925. He, like you, celebrated the greens at MVCC...but it's my conspirational belief that it's because he had some hand in them. The excellent routing is, of course, all Ross.


I agree wholeheartedly with your larger point, however.

Miami Valley in Dayton, OH.


And how much benign neglect is preservation v. erosion?


Must an architect be involved to lose a Ross?
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

Tom_Doak

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2025, 09:01:54 AM »
It might be fair to ask how many courses were Donald Ross originals when they opened? He left much of the work to others.


Tommy:


It's fair, IF you acknowledge that the same is true for many famous Golden Age architects.  Dr. MacKenzie wasn't in town very long for Crystal Downs.  [Perry Maxwell was.]  C.B. Macdonald left a bunch of the details to Seth Raynor.  Harry Colt gets primary credit for a bunch of courses on the Continent that Morrison or Alison built for him.  And Old Tom Morris rarely stayed for construction.


Someday someone will say the same about me . . . I was only at Childress Hall for 19 days during the construction process.  But at least I can say that I saw every green get shaped and made my edits and gave them the thumbs up. 


That is not true of the Golden Age guys who worked around the country, but apparently their work didn't suffer for it too much.  After all, we have only mythologized "Donald Ross" because his golf courses turned out pretty well, whoever watched them get built.

Brian Finn

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2025, 09:43:46 AM »
Which is somewhat ironic as a good chunk of the Ross being worked on was the result of a Donald Ross cookie-cutter approach to a topo map interpreted in the field by a McGovern or a Maples or a James or Harrison, et. al.
Has anyone taken a closer look at the Ross course compendium grouped by the onsite construction manager?  Did McGovern or Maples, for example, build a larger share of the more highly regarded courses?  If yes, was it because they were assigned the bigger budget projects, or were the assignments mostly regional (I believe this is the case)? 

It seems broadly accepted that Ross was a brilliant router of golf courses.  The courses where he spent most time and attention seem to be among his most highly regarded, and his meticulously detailed design instructions make clear he applied varied and often brilliant ideas to the many sites on which he was architect...but which of his field generals executed at the highest and/or most creative level?
New for 2025: Cabarrus CC...

Jonathan Cummings

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2025, 09:50:38 AM »
Fountainhead in Hagerstown, MD??

Ronald Montesano

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2025, 03:20:07 PM »
Oak Hill West and Monroe are my nominees. If anyone knows of work done, please speak up!
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

PCCraig

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2025, 04:23:20 PM »
Old Elm? Where he actually built the golf course on behalf of Colt & Colt's routing?


Donald Ross must have had a great PR person.
H.P.S.

Kyle Harris

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2025, 05:14:27 PM »
Monroe had some Gil Hanse work done around 2009-2010, I think?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Mark_Fine

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2025, 07:16:19 PM »
With all due respect to Mr. Ross, there are a lot of his courses out there that have his name on them that are nothing to write home about. Many of them are courses that were as we like to call them,  “topo” courses that he never saw and where he just mailed in a routing or those where he might’ve been on site for a day or two at most,… Yes many of those turned out great but some not so much.  Again, it is all relative as Ross was definitely not trying to design the world’s greatest golf course with each of his 400 or so layouts. As such, some are just good basic golf, 3 or 4 on the Doak scale.  Those who have played a lot of his lesser known courses know what I am talking about.  Are these all worthy of “restoration” just because they are associated with Ross - you tell me  ;)

Ira Fishman

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2025, 07:30:08 PM »
Are there any “Fine” courses that I have missed playing? Are they better than Ross “topo” courses? If so, please send a map.

Mark_Fine

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2025, 07:38:09 PM »
Ira,
All I will say is I have a lot of happy clients but as you know, my focus is on improving “existing” courses and helping clients make good decisions for their asset.  I am not trying to make them “better” than the course down the street.   I am trying to make them as good as they can be given the goals and financial means of the ownership. 

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