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Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #175 on: Yesterday at 11:36:20 PM »
Wachusett CC (West Boylseton, MA)


Dec. 2, 1926 Springfield Daily Republican -


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #176 on: Yesterday at 11:41:07 PM »
Tekoa CC (Westfield, MA)


Oct. 23, 1923 The Morning Union -


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #177 on: Yesterday at 11:46:55 PM »
Tedesco CC (Swampscott, MA)


April 20, 1912 Boston Evening Transcript -


« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:52:18 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark_Fine

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #178 on: Today at 07:10:26 AM »
Sven,
All great information that you are posting, thank you!  But please tell us all how you would restate and correct the myth that many tend to believe that The Donald Ross Society, who should be well educated Ross experts, are promoting on their website which is cut and pasted below:

"Of all the courses that bear Ross' name, either as original designs or as renovation projects, he probably never even saw a third of them, and another third he visited only once or twice. Given the constraints of train and car travel in those days, repeat visits were difficult to arrange. Though Ross was a voracious traveler, he did much of his design work from his home in a cottage behind the third green at Pinehurst. There he worked from topographic maps, drew up blueprints, and wrote simple but sharply-worded instructions that his construction crew knew how to implement."

MCirba

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #179 on: Today at 08:31:57 AM »
I'd suggest that in my experience as historian of the Walter Travis Society that new information is being learned all the time, primarily because more newspapers are being digitized and therefore much easier to research.


Perhaps when that synopsis was written on the DRS website we were still in the microfilm days of 15 years ago?   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #180 on: Today at 08:58:59 AM »
Sven,
But please tell us all how you would restate and correct the myth that many tend to believe that The Donald Ross Society ... are promoting on their website which is cut and pasted below:

"Of all the courses that bear Ross' name, either as original designs or as renovation projects, he probably never even saw a third of them, and another third he visited only once or twice."


Mark:


All good things will happen in time.


I'm glad to see you've come around to believe that language to be a myth.


Sven



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #181 on: Today at 09:04:16 AM »
Springfield CC (West Springfield, MA)


June 1, 1915 Springfield Evening Union -


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Carl Johnson

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #182 on: Today at 09:27:41 AM »
Could someone who's been following this thread carefully provide a brief summary of the dispute there appears to be between Mark Fine and Sven Nilsen?  I can't even tell who's on the "visits to 1/3" side.  Thanks in advance.

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #183 on: Today at 09:40:48 AM »
Sara Bay CC aka Whitfield Estates CC (Sarasota, FL)


June 16, 1924 Tampa Tribune -






Jan. 14, 1925 Tampa Tribune -


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #184 on: Today at 09:41:44 AM »
Carl,


Sven is trying to show Mark and other readers that Ross visited far more courses than any expert has ever given him credit for.  He is trying to show Mark why an absolute statement from 24 years ago is really hard to back up with the information that is available today.  Mark believed Ross never saw “About” 1/3 of his courses, therefore he must have designed those courses by topographic map.” As the articles keep coming, the readers should be able to get a sense of Ross’ work ethic and travel schedule.  The picture that was painted by experts in the past doesn’t seem to be coming to fruition, making it harder to believe with every extra confirmed visit.


Bret

Mark_Fine

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #185 on: Today at 09:49:09 AM »
Mike, Sven, Bret and others,
Are you saying the Donald Ross Society website has not been updated for 15 or even 24 years?  If so, no wonder that myth is still out there. 

As Carl suggests, can someone say what that Ross Society website should say?  I hope it is not TBD (To Be Determined)  ;D


And yes we all agree new info comes out all the time and we do need to revise our thinking.  No problem.  But when the Ross Society says one thing and other experts like Brad Klein don't disagree and people get skewered for spreading their myth whose fault is that?

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #186 on: Today at 09:56:09 AM »
Highlands CC (Grand Rapids, MI)


Sept. 26, 1915 Detroit Free Press -



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #187 on: Today at 09:58:46 AM »
Mike, Sven, Bret and others,
Are you saying the Donald Ross Society website has not been updated for 15 or even 24 years?  If so, no wonder that myth is still out there. 

As Carl suggests, can someone say what that Ross Society website should say?  I hope it is not TBD (To Be Determined)  ;D


And yes we all agree new info comes out all the time and we do need to revise our thinking.  No problem.  But when the Ross Society says one thing and other experts like Brad Klein don't disagree and people get skewered for spreading their myth whose fault is that?


Mark,


I’m sure you can understand experts unwillingness to listen to amateur researchers.  Maybe that’s why it hasn’t been updated?  Perhaps the society could write about what a hard worker Donald Ross was, how much he traveled and how involved he was with each project.  Prop him up with facts, rather than drag him down with speculation.


If you have to say something about the confirmed visits, just say what you know, don’t infer anything from that information and propagate a myth. As of 2001, only 56% of the courses attributed to Ross had confirmed visits.  Today that number is higher and will likely go up in the future as more information becomes available.


Bret

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #188 on: Today at 10:05:12 AM »
Shadow Ridge GC (Ionia, MI)


Sept. 26, 1915 Detroit Free Press -





Nov. 1916 American Golfer -





"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark_Fine

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #189 on: Today at 10:11:27 AM »
Brett,
Your points are well taken but the Ross Society are or at least should be considered the experts on Ross. So when they have something on their site that states what it does it’s hard to disagree with that. If I came on here and said I know more about Ross than the Ross Society and I’d get skewered for it.  You guys should take up your points with them.  The myth is loud and clear on their site!!

Bret Lawrence

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #190 on: Today at 10:31:03 AM »
Mark,


I don’t have any issues with the Ross Society, they can do whatever they’d like. I was just answering yours and Carl’s questions. My job is not to tell experts how to do their job, my job is to find information.  I generally find information for myself, so I can understand the story from when it was first told. I’m happy to share this information with anyone interested, but how it’s received after delivery is completely out of my hands.


Bret

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #191 on: Today at 10:39:10 AM »
A followup on Shadow Ridge.  Ross returned to the course in 1924 to suggest improvements.  This work is not reflected in any of the Ross Course Listings I've seen.


May 29, 1924 Grand Rapids Press -



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #192 on: Today at 10:40:05 AM »
While we are at it….. Does any one have the quote about Ross’s opener being a “gentle” handshake? 


I feel like I once read “gentleman’s” handshake, although I could have just imagined that.  Gentle handshake always sounded funny to me?

Bret Lawrence

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #193 on: Today at 11:06:27 AM »

This history of Apawamis notes Ross being called in to make a survey in 1918:





Here is a link to the Apawamis History.  This story is page 69, there is a great photograph on page 62.

https://hdl.handle.net/2027/umn.31951002076187j

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #194 on: Today at 11:14:31 AM »
Overhills GC (Overhills, NC)


Buried in the following article on Ross in 1916 is a reference to Ross going to Overhills to lay out a new nine holes.  His presence at Overhills should surprise no one, due to its proximity to Pinehurst.


The article also references a good number of other Ross projects from that era, including several specifically noting Ross traveling to be on site (some of them locations not confirmed in the DRR list):


Denver
Dayton
Willowick




June 17, 1916 The Evening Post -








"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #195 on: Today at 12:20:47 PM »
Riviera CC aka Miami Biltmore (Coral Gables, FL)


June 9, 1925 Miami News -


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Simon Barrington

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #196 on: Today at 01:07:53 PM »
While we are at it….. Does any one have the quote about Ross’s opener being a “gentle” handshake? 

I feel like I once read “gentleman’s” handshake, although I could have just imagined that.  Gentle handshake always sounded funny to me?
"Golf has Never Failed Me" doesn't use that phrase (in either form) not sure if it is his quote elsewhere or another's interpretation...


- Opening Holes -
"It is best not to make the first two holes or so too difficult.
Give the player a chance to warm up a bit and get the swing of his stroke well under control.
Then give him some real nuts to crack."

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #197 on: Today at 01:33:37 PM »
White Bear Yacht Club (White Bear Lake, MN)


Sept. 1, 1916 Minneapolis Tribune -



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

Re: Donald Ross
« Reply #198 on: Today at 01:42:59 PM »
Richland CC (Nashville, TN)


This is one where Ross has mistakenly been attributed for remodeling work done in 1920.  There is no evidence of this being the case.


Ross was there in the 1930's examining sites for the club's proposed new course.


Aug. 6, 1930 The Tennessean -


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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