Consensus in Rankings

[Tim Martin]

TPC Sawgrass cracks the Top 50 U.S. on the Golf, Golf Digest and GolfWeek modern lists. For me a great test for the best players in the world and those carrying low digit handicaps. I only attended a practice round a few years ago but spent the entire day walking all the holes both forward and in reverse and came away with the feeling that there were just too many hero shots that required challenging both sand and water. Greens and surrounds are terrific but too difficult to get to. I really don’t have any desire to play the course and can think of other methods of self flagellation that would be far less punishing.

[Niall C]

Consensus is over-rated. Best to go with a trusted voice.


Niall

[Mark Pearce]

Consensus is over-rated. Best to go with a trusted voice.


Niall

Even better, form your own opinion.


For me, Sean is a trusted voice.  Without his opinion I would never have seen Kington and I'd have been later finding Alnwick Village.  His take on most courses is one I agree with completely.  But we have disagreed on Muirfield for a long time and it's apparent in this thread that we have very different views on Kingsbarns and Cruden Bay.

[Kalen Braley]

TPC Sawgrass cracks the Top 50 U.S. on the Golf, Golf Digest and GolfWeek modern lists. For me a great test for the best players in the world and those carrying low digit handicaps. I only attended a practice round a few years ago but spent the entire day walking all the holes both forward and in reverse and came away with the feeling that there were just too many hero shots that required challenging both sand and water. Greens and surrounds are terrific but too difficult to get to. I really don’t have any desire to play the course and can think of other methods of self flagellation that would be far less punishing.

Tim ditto for me regarding Pinehurst #2.  I love the look of the course, but the severity of the crowned greens with the fallaway areas and brutal recovery shots, just doesn't look like any fun.  I certainly want to make a trip out there and play several others in the area, but even if offered to play it for free, doubt it would be tempting much less fork over the ~$500 green fee.

P.S.  This thread is teetering on a good old fashioned sacred cow GCA dustup.  Given its been awhile, might be time to get another one going. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I want to hear from those with whom I disagree. I always learn something.

[Ira Fishman]

TPC Sawgrass cracks the Top 50 U.S. on the Golf, Golf Digest and GolfWeek modern lists. For me a great test for the best players in the world and those carrying low digit handicaps. I only attended a practice round a few years ago but spent the entire day walking all the holes both forward and in reverse and came away with the feeling that there were just too many hero shots that required challenging both sand and water. Greens and surrounds are terrific but too difficult to get to. I really don’t have any desire to play the course and can think of other methods of self flagellation that would be far less punishing.

Tim ditto for me regarding Pinehurst #2.  I love the look of the course, but the severity of the crowned greens with the fallaway areas and brutal recovery shots, just doesn't look like any fun.  I certainly want to make a trip out there and play several others in the area, but even if offered to play it for free, doubt it would be tempting much less fork over the ~$500 green fee.

P.S.  This thread is teetering on a good old fashioned sacred cow GCA dustup.  Given its been awhile, might be time to get another one going. 

Kalen,


I am a mediocre golfer with a weak short game. I have played PH2 twice since the C&C work. It is in my top 5 all time favorites. What Ross did with a relatively flat piece of land is genius. You have to think hard about every shot. Whether the green complexes are what he intended (there are arguments both ways), they are sheer fun even as demanding as they are.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

I want to hear from those with whom I disagree. I always learn something.

Tom-I agree wholeheartedly and have found arguments on both sides to have merit. I thought it was especially brave of Ben Sims to share his thoughts on Pine Valley which might be the definitive sacred cow.

[Kalen Braley]

TPC Sawgrass cracks the Top 50 U.S. on the Golf, Golf Digest and GolfWeek modern lists. For me a great test for the best players in the world and those carrying low digit handicaps. I only attended a practice round a few years ago but spent the entire day walking all the holes both forward and in reverse and came away with the feeling that there were just too many hero shots that required challenging both sand and water. Greens and surrounds are terrific but too difficult to get to. I really don’t have any desire to play the course and can think of other methods of self flagellation that would be far less punishing.

Tim ditto for me regarding Pinehurst #2.  I love the look of the course, but the severity of the crowned greens with the fallaway areas and brutal recovery shots, just doesn't look like any fun.  I certainly want to make a trip out there and play several others in the area, but even if offered to play it for free, doubt it would be tempting much less fork over the ~$500 green fee.

P.S.  This thread is teetering on a good old fashioned sacred cow GCA dustup.  Given its been awhile, might be time to get another one going. 

Kalen,

I am a mediocre golfer with a weak short game. I have played PH2 twice since the C&C work. It is in my top 5 all time favorites. What Ross did with a relatively flat piece of land is genius. You have to think hard about every shot. Whether the green complexes are what he intended (there are arguments both ways), they are sheer fun even as demanding as they are.

Ira

Ira we certainly share common traits with crap short game and really enjoying having to think about every shot.

Where I might differ is in being asked to execute a difficult chip, pitch, putt on or around the green, over and over and over again.  A few times per round I certainly don't mind, its adds spice, but I'm guessing the over/under on the number of holes I would just pick up would be at least 9 if not more. So no thanks to that.

As a counter-point another course I also found very difficult, but absolutely loved, is Chambers Bay.  Yes it beat me up, but did so in a number of different ways and I certainly enjoyed the variety of "asks" the golfer encounters there.

[Ira Fishman]

TPC Sawgrass cracks the Top 50 U.S. on the Golf, Golf Digest and GolfWeek modern lists. For me a great test for the best players in the world and those carrying low digit handicaps. I only attended a practice round a few years ago but spent the entire day walking all the holes both forward and in reverse and came away with the feeling that there were just too many hero shots that required challenging both sand and water. Greens and surrounds are terrific but too difficult to get to. I really don’t have any desire to play the course and can think of other methods of self flagellation that would be far less punishing.

Tim ditto for me regarding Pinehurst #2.  I love the look of the course, but the severity of the crowned greens with the fallaway areas and brutal recovery shots, just doesn't look like any fun.  I certainly want to make a trip out there and play several others in the area, but even if offered to play it for free, doubt it would be tempting much less fork over the ~$500 green fee.

P.S.  This thread is teetering on a good old fashioned sacred cow GCA dustup.  Given its been awhile, might be time to get another one going. 

Kalen,

I am a mediocre golfer with a weak short game. I have played PH2 twice since the C&C work. It is in my top 5 all time favorites. What Ross did with a relatively flat piece of land is genius. You have to think hard about every shot. Whether the green complexes are what he intended (there are arguments both ways), they are sheer fun even as demanding as they are.

Ira

Ira we certainly share common traits with crap short game and really enjoying having to think about every shot.

Where I might differ is in being asked to execute a difficult chip, pitch, putt on or around the green, over and over and over again.  A few times per round I certainly don't mind, its adds spice, but I'm guessing the over/under on the number of holes I would just pick up would be at least 9 if not more. So no thanks to that.

As a counter-point another course I also found very difficult, but absolutely loved, is Chambers Bay.  Yes it beat me up, but did so in a number of different ways and I certainly enjoyed the variety of "asks" the golfer encounters there.

The fun part about the greens is that you can use (or try to use) so many different shots. Putter, 3 wood, hybrid, 7 iron, wedges. I found myself rolling back or over more in the Sand Belt than at PH2 because the bunkers and adjacent just suck your ball in.


Ira

[Sean_A]

Consensus is over-rated. Best to go with a trusted voice.


Niall

Even better, form your own opinion.


For me, Sean is a trusted voice.  Without his opinion I would never have seen Kington and I'd have been later finding Alnwick Village.  His take on most courses is one I agree with completely.  But we have disagreed on Muirfield for a long time and it's apparent in this thread that we have very different views on Kingsbarns and Cruden Bay.

What do you mean? One reason I went to Alnmouth Village is because you said it was a decent course. That was far more encouraging than Doak’s dismissive thoughts…which I didn’t trust given the location of the course.


I even went back to Muirfield a few years ago partly because of your steadfast insistence that is one of the best courses you have played.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Consensus is over-rated. Best to go with a trusted voice.


Niall

Even better, form your own opinion.


For me, Sean is a trusted voice.  Without his opinion I would never have seen Kington and I'd have been later finding Alnwick Village.  His take on most courses is one I agree with completely.  But we have disagreed on Muirfield for a long time and it's apparent in this thread that we have very different views on Kingsbarns and Cruden Bay.

What do you mean? One reason I went to Alnmouth Village is because you said it was a decent course. That was far more encouraging than Doak’s dismissive thoughts…which I didn’t trust given the location of the course.


I even went back to Muirfield a few years ago partly because of your steadfast insistence that is one of the best courses you have played.

Ciao

I'd never been to Alnmouth Village before you profiled it here.  That's weird.  I had always understood it was decent (and a better bet than Alnmouth, which I had played and not loved at all).  Are you sure that was me?  I'd always thought the Confidential Guide was unfair on Seaton Carew, Northumberland and Brancepeth Castle.  What did it say about Alnmouth Village?


And I remain steadfast that Muirfield is one of the best courses I have played!  Delighted you went back.  Interested to know if that revisit altered your view at all?

[Ira Fishman]

Niall, Sean, and Mark,


Two courses I never would have played back in 2018 on our first visit to Scotland were Brora and Golspie. And the same regarding Elie on our second visit in 2019. Trusted voices do indeed matter.


In terms of the question posed by this thread, Golspie is definitely underrated. I wonder if the groupthink would be otherwise if T Doak had not given it a DS4. And Elie is higher than a DS6.


Ira

[Sean_A]

Consensus is over-rated. Best to go with a trusted voice.


Niall

Even better, form your own opinion.


For me, Sean is a trusted voice.  Without his opinion I would never have seen Kington and I'd have been later finding Alnwick Village.  His take on most courses is one I agree with completely.  But we have disagreed on Muirfield for a long time and it's apparent in this thread that we have very different views on Kingsbarns and Cruden Bay.

What do you mean? One reason I went to Alnmouth Village is because you said it was a decent course. That was far more encouraging than Doak’s dismissive thoughts…which I didn’t trust given the location of the course.


I even went back to Muirfield a few years ago partly because of your steadfast insistence that is one of the best courses you have played.

Ciao

I'd never been to Alnmouth Village before you profiled it here.  That's weird.  I had always understood it was decent (and a better bet than Alnmouth, which I had played and not loved at all).  Are you sure that was me?  I'd always thought the Confidential Guide was unfair on Seaton Carew, Northumberland and Brancepeth Castle.  What did it say about Alnmouth Village?


And I remain steadfast that Muirfield is one of the best courses I have played!  Delighted you went back.  Interested to know if that revisit altered your view at all?

Maybe I got it wrong….very possible.

I liked Muirfield more the last time, but  cheated by playing in March when there was virtually no rough. The course makes far more sense to me with little chance to lose a ball. Still, I respect Muirfield more than I admire it.

Ciao

[Paul Jones]

I will now go the other way and name a course (or 2) that I think is better than most do… pretty sure it is not in any top 100…


Bidermann - I am a huge Dick Wilson fan and fell in love with this place.


2nd is Deepdale - who many on this forum have pooped on. Even played it twice and enjoyed even more 2nd time.


I have been wanting to visit Meadow Brook for some time.


FYI… I am a member of a Dick Wilson course in Louisiana.

[Niall C]

Niall, Sean, and Mark,

Don't you dare lump me in with those two headbangers. One doesn't know where he's been and the other doesn't know what he said !


Niall

[Mark Pearce]

I liked Muirfield more the last time, but  cheated by playing in March when there was virtually no rough. The course makes far more sense to me with little chance to lose a ball. Still, I respect Muirfield more than I admire it.

I suspect most links courses are at their best on a dry, warmish day in March when the rough will be down but there can also be some decent run.


I think Muirfield's rough is exaggerated most of the time - it's no worse than any other championship course (excepting TOC). It's also the case that there is nearly always a side to miss where the rough is less bad than the other

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