Penalty Area off property

[mike_beene]

Is it Torrey Pines choice to mark the cliff left of 4 as a penalty area? It seems the course has no boundary on the west side? Does a course have the option of marking a boundary as a penalty area generally—avoiding stroke and distance? I think the beach is OB at Portrush?

[Thomas Dai]

Wasn’t there a rule change of some kind in the last couple of years that allowed for OB shots to be dropped under a 1 shot penalty adjacent to where the player/partners thought the ball went OB? Speed of play might have been the reason for its introduction and not sure it was to apply everywhere? I can’t recall the exact details though I’m sure someone posting herein will know.
Atb

[Kalen Braley]

Isn't that also the case at Pebble for holes 8 - 10?

As I understand it, if you hit it on that beach you can play it from there and I'm 99.9% the resort does not own it (The beach west of 18 might be a different case thou).

[Kyle Harris]

Wasn’t there a rule change of some kind in the last couple of years that allowed for OB shots to be dropped under a 1 shot penalty adjacent to where the player/partners thought the ball went OB? Speed of play might have been the reason for its introduction and not sure it was to apply everywhere? I can’t recall the exact details though I’m sure someone posting herein will know.
Atb

There’s a Model Local Rule for a two stroke drop at the nearest location in the fairway.


The MLR is irritating for a number of reasons not the least of which is using the term fairway.

[Tom_Doak]

Bandon Dunes doesn't own the beach either -- technically, it's a state highway -- but I believe they have always marked the cliff as the edge of a large water hazard.


I hate the term "penalty area"

[JohnVDB]

Having been very deeply involved with the writing of much of what is mentioned in the post and comments to this point let me try to clarify a few thoughts on the matter.
With the 2019 Rules update it was recognized that while the ruling bodies could say that we do or don't like certain things about how courses and Committees marked their courses, we really have no power over them to prohibit it For a number of years before this there was a Decision that said the Committee could decide if the area such as this would be a water hazard or out of bounds even if the water was off the course property.  So Torrey Pines or the PGA Tour could mark the cliff as a penalty area or out of bounds. In fact the area along the left of #17 at Torrey has been marked both ways through the years.
In the Committee Procedures the issues of marking a golf course are discussed. While a Committee could mark the entire boundary of their golf course as a penalty area, we recommend against this if there is any private property involved. One reason is that players can play from penalty areas (unless they are declared No Play Zones) and second because players might take more risks playing near them if it is a penalty area and possibly cause damage to property because of that. For that matter, there is no requirement to mark anything as OB and there are certainly courses that don't have OB at all.  These are usually in the desert or forested areas where there aren't homes around the area.
The Model Local Rule (E-5) which is the alternative to stroke and distance that Thomas Dai mentioned is a TWO STROKE penalty, not one.  This is the "moral equivalent" of returning to the tee and hitting another ball. It is intended to speed up play and should only be used for everyday play, not in tournaments. As for Kyle not liking us putting the term "fairway" in there, it has been in local rules for years.  In particular the Local Rule for 'Lift, Clean and Place. We could have used the old term "cut to fairway height or less" but we were trying to simplify the language so just saying "fairway" was easier.
Tom Doak mentioned Bandon Dunes.  As I was part of the Oregon Golf Association crew that did the first course rating there in 1998, I can provide a little history.  The course wanted to mark the cliffs as OB to stop people going down there and risk falling.  We recommended against it for playablity reasons. For example, the 6th hole at Bandon Dunes had lots of junk to the right of the hole where a ball could be lost or, if found, was highly likely to be unplayable.  If the left side was OB, players could be stuck there trying to get a ball in play, especially in high winds.  We suggested to them to make it as a water hazard and make it Environmentally Sensitive (even though it really wasn't).  Then people couldn't play from there but, could drop where the ball entered instead of going back to the tee. Imagine trying to play that hole in a heavy left to right wind if the left side was OB. These days they've cleaned the area to the right of green so it is less of an issue.
As for the term "penalty area", I was never a big fan of it either.  But, since we were allowing courses to mark any areas on the course with red or yellow stakes using the term "water hazard" wouldn't have been correct as there was no need for it to be a body of water.  I argued for just calling them "hazards", but others felt that since term was previously used to mean both water hazards and bunkers we needed to move away from it. I hate how the TV people use the term all the time instead of just saying that the ball is in the creek, lake or ocean. Expanding the meaning to include other areas of the course was mainly a realization that courses were already marking lots of areas that weren't water hazard and it should be up to them to decide. To go back to the top example, the 17th at Torrey doesn't really have any water in there so marking it as a water hazard was wrong in the past, but marking it as a penalty area is correct now.

[Daryl David]

Thanks John. Excellent explanation.

[mike_beene]

Thanks John. This issue has lived in my head a long time—often arising from playing a home course with ample out of bounds in play. The US Open at Merion had some very tight—Carnoustie like—OB especially up the left of 14-15. I prefer the Torrey and Pebble hazard( that feels better Tom) marking, especially for stroke play. John, again thanks for the explanation.

[mike_beene]

Mr. Scheffler, you can go down and play the ball, but our lawyers are running a pre-injury release out for you to sign and have notarized first.

[Kyle Harris]

I think the transition (in concept) from water hazard to penalty area was the best of the 2019 revisions.

Yes, "Penalty Area" is a cumbersome term but the idea that once can (and in a lot of cases should) mark off an area of the golf course that eliminated the mandate to locate the golf ball is ideal.

For one thing, it simplifies the rules even further (they're already simple) and it establishes that the rules shall not bend to golf design or maintenace but rather should be other way around. Lost balls and OB are only problems if they exist. A golf course with too many such instances should probably suffer the 6 hour rounds and subsequent lack of popularity. The rules of golf don't exist to prop up your bad business model or golf course design.

[Matt_Cohn]

I would posit a general guideline that if something could reasonably be called defined as either a penalty area or OB, it should be a penalty area.


The 14th hole at Saticoy defines the canyon edge as OB and that felt strange. It might just be because it would be dangerous to attempt to play from there, though they could have marked it as a no-play penalty area. IDK.

[Jim Sherma]

If the goal is to limit the number of balls that enter the area in the first place, then the OB designation could help attain that through the larger penalty causing more players to aim further away from the boundary.

[Ally Mcintosh]

One thing I might add (John touched on it) is that most links courses DO actually own the land to the foreshore. So playing off the beach under red stakes does make sense in that context.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If the goal is to limit the number of balls that enter the area in the first place, then the OB designation could help attain that through the larger penalty causing more players to aim further away from the boundary.

Additionally, marking it as a "no play zone" requires more signage and education. And requires more compliance from golfers. Golfers don't know the rules that well, but they do generally seem to understand OB = no playing it. I suspect even if it was marked red and a NPZ, golfers would still be venturing down there to play shots saying "oh, I can play that one, it's not that dangerous!"

[Mark Kiely]

Matt: Left of 14 at Saticoy is off the property. Why do you feel it's strange to be marked OB?

[jeffwarne]

JohnVDB,
Thank you for your years of service, and than you for your role in attempting to simplify the rules.
Finally, thank you for your eloquent essay above on the topic.


I for one do not find the rules of golf simpler now, perhaps that is merely the curmudgeon in me lamenting the fact that I once knew the rules very well, and followed their logic and consistency.
It now seems that there are multiple inconsistencies.
I certainly see more confusion than ever amongst competing club professionals who once very clearly understood the rules
Previously, the rules were complicated to learn, and appeared to be written by lawyers, but once you learned them, especially the definitions, were quite logical and consistent.


For instance, there was and continues to be no penalty for a ball moving or accidentally struck off a teeing area, rightfully, because the ball was "not in play".
But yet, now, a ball on a green struck accidentally is not a penalty, but it is a penalty when in the "general area"(but not in the teeing area or on the green)
So is a ball on the green not "in play"? or it just an exception?


I really don't find that simpler, or logical.
Again, I respectfully appreciate your contributions and service, but even your above paragraph contains so many complicated justifications for local rules, new rules and terms, and how they should be implemented.




The whole idea of a Model Local Rule baffles me-a local rule is just that-local.
A rule that is passed for that club, for that day, or just for that competition.
The lost ball/OB model local rule is a perfect example of confusion.
It is only a suggestion for clubs to adopt, which, as demonstrated above, few understand, and even fewer(as in almost zero) apply it properly.


I understand the intent of such a rule, I just don't think a club needs permission to adopt a local rule, and because it got a lot of attention in the 2019 changes, many think it is a rules change, not merely an option, and one not intended for tournaments.


And thank you again for your service and contributions here.
And those of us 6 foot 5 and taller with bad backs would like to lose the knee drop rule

[Matt_Cohn]

Matt: Left of 14 at Saticoy is off the property. Why do you feel it's strange to be marked OB?

Interesting, I'd wondered about that. A few reasons:


1. Virtually every (or maybe every) other canyon or cliff I've played next to is a penalty area.
2. Wiggly OB lines seem weird (in part because wiggly property lines seem weird).
3. Hitting over OB seems weird.
4. It seems overly penalizing—just a few feet off the fairway—when calling it a penalty area is an available option.
5. There's nothing there for 200 yards. Of course the term OB literally means beyond the property boundaries, but in practice a place is usually marked OB because there's something there on the other side.


All of those things do occur on certain occasions, and I'm certainly talking about feelings and not just property lines. But it felt weird.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Obviously, declaring a ball off the property as a penalty area is allowed; it’s common at seaside courses. I’ve also seen it when the area is almost always unplayable - marshlands, canyons, thick forest, etc. John’s explanation is thorough and clear.
  Calling it a penalty area rather than out of bounds is kinder to the golfer and saves time. To say it encourages the golfer to be more likely to take a risk because it’s a one stroke penalty rather than stroke and distance seems silly to me. I’m certainly not good enough to think like that, and I doubt the best golfers think that way either.

[Matt_Cohn]

To say it encourages the golfer to be more likely to take a risk because it’s a one stroke penalty rather than stroke and distance seems silly to me. I’m certainly not good enough to think like that, and I doubt the best golfers think that way either.

There's two things Jim. It's not just that it's less penalizing; it's also that you don't have to hit the same shot again!


12 at Poppy Hills is a tight tee shot where right used to be OB (defined by dots on the outer edge of the cart path you can see in the picture). A few years ago, it was changed to a penalty area. Previously, if you hit it OB right, you'd almost certainly hit it in the left trees the second time, and your most likely score was triple. Now if you miss it right, you drop, hit it up to the green, and typically make bogey—whereas a left miss might put you in the dense trees where bogey is an accomplishment. Ultimately, changing the right from OB to penalty area moved my teeshot target about 15 yards to the right!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Calling it a penalty area rather than out of bounds is kinder to the golfer and saves time. To say it encourages the golfer to be more likely to take a risk because it’s a one stroke penalty rather than stroke and distance seems silly to me. I’m certainly not good enough to think like that, and I doubt the best golfers think that way either.

They absolutely do.

[Mark Kiely]

Matt: Left of 14 at Saticoy is off the property. Why do you feel it's strange to be marked OB?

Interesting, I'd wondered about that. A few reasons:

Sorry, Matt, I didn't mean to imply I have firsthand knowledge of Saticoy's property lines. It's just that the canyon/cliff leads to some sort of agricultural land down below that I assume isn't owned by the golf course.


EDITED to remove a different incorrect assumption on my part.

[JohnVDB]

To say it encourages the golfer to be more likely to take a risk because it’s a one stroke penalty rather than stroke and distance seems silly to me. I’m certainly not good enough to think like that, and I doubt the best golfers think that way either.

There's two things Jim. It's not just that it's less penalizing; it's also that you don't have to hit the same shot again!


12 at Poppy Hills is a tight tee shot where right used to be OB (defined by dots on the outer edge of the cart path you can see in the picture). A few years ago, it was changed to a penalty area. Previously, if you hit it OB right, you'd almost certainly hit it in the left trees the second time, and your most likely score was triple. Now if you miss it right, you drop, hit it up to the green, and typically make bogey—whereas a left miss might put you in the dense trees where bogey is an accomplishment. Ultimately, changing the right from OB to penalty area moved my teeshot target about 15 yards to the right!

Another place I'm quite familiar with as I helped put the white dots there. Don't ask why we had to put the dots there.  Thankfully the rules changes in 2019 made that simpler also.
When they did the redesign they changed the hole from a 90 degree dogleg par 5 around the OB to a straight par 4 with the OB on the side.  Originally the area to the right of the 12th hole had been a protected area (ESA then NPZ now), but I think they got permission to delete that when the redesign was done.

[JohnVDB]

JohnVDB,

...
For instance, there was and continues to be no penalty for a ball moving or accidentally struck off a teeing area, rightfully, because the ball was "not in play".
But yet, now, a ball on a green struck accidentally is not a penalty, but it is a penalty when in the "general area"(but not in the teeing area or on the green)
So is a ball on the green not "in play"? or it just an exception?
...
The whole idea of a Model Local Rule baffles me-a local rule is just that-local.
A rule that is passed for that club, for that day, or just for that competition.
The lost ball/OB model local rule is a perfect example of confusion.
It is only a suggestion for clubs to adopt, which, as demonstrated above, few understand, and even fewer(as in almost zero) apply it properly.


I understand the intent of such a rule, I just don't think a club needs permission to adopt a local rule, and because it got a lot of attention in the 2019 changes, many think it is a rules change, not merely an option, and one not intended for tournaments.
...
And those of us 6 foot 5 and taller with bad backs would like to lose the knee drop rule

Jeff,
Thanks for the kind words. I don't want to turn this into a full on Rules seminar but a few thoughts on your comments.
1) Ball moving on putting green. It was recognized that with the changes to agronomics over the past 30+ years (since 1984 revision) putting greens got much slipperier.  Balls moved easily and it was very hard to determine why. While Dustin Johnson's incident at the 2016 US Open was considered to be the cause of this rule by some, I can definitively say it was in there before that. The reason it is only on the putting green and not the geernal area, bunkers or penalty areas is to keep people from being to careless in those areas.  Additionally there were already many exceptions on the putting where you wouldn't get penalized for moving your ball such as when removing a loose impediment, fixing a ball mark, lifting or replacing your ball etc.  We removed all the exceptions and just said, if you move it, put it back with no penalty.  That seems simpler to me. So, yes, the putting green is a special place becuase you can lift and clean your ball for example, so it gets special rules and treatment.
2) Committees/courses  can make their own Local Rules.  The purpose of the Model Local Rules is to get consistent procedures and penalties by giving them examples of how to do things. The MLR for the alternation to Stroke and Distance was hotly debated as people didn't like the concept of avoiding S&D and/or it was complicated etc. It was put in because it was realized that in everyday play, especially on a crowded public course, it was impracticable to expect players to go back and nobody did.  So, we put in a MLR that allowed the practice everyone was using and specified that it was a two-stroke penalty because most people only take one.  In most cases people will play from a location that is "close enough" to proper in these circumstances and if they take the proper penalty it won't affect their score too much from a handicapping point of view.
3) I'm 6' 5" and have a bad back.  I can assure you that teeing the ball up 18 times a round, marking and lifting my ball from the putting green, replacing it on the putting green and getting it out of the hole 18 times a round puts more pressure on my back than the hopefully no more than one or two times a round I might have to drop the ball from knee height. The reasons for the knee high drop were very strong and I believe had shown that you can get your ball in play quickly and not need to redrop as often which speeds up play.

[Kyle Harris]

I'm always amazed that the USGA seems more keen on teaching the rules of golf from a historic perspective than not.

Golf is one of the few sports with games that actually has the concept of "State based Effect" in some form. First you have to prove the ball is on the golf course and then from there you have to determine where it is located within the defined areas of the golf course.

Almost every golf rule has to do with the state of the ball and the state of the ball dictates what you may or must do with it. There's no sense in considering a ball "in play" anymore. If it's on the putting green that's the state of the ball. If it's in a bunker, etc.

Balls lost (if the ball weren't lost you'd be able to prove it was on the golf course) or OB are not on the golf course. Stroke and Distance to put it back.

[Matt_Cohn]

Don't ask why we had to put the dots there.

I'll say why! If OB was delineated by the outside edge of the cart path, then the cart path itself would be an OB marker. There is no free relief from an OB marker. Therefore, free relief from that particular cart path would not be allowed, which would be annoying.


By saying that the dots mark OB, rather than the path, the path is no longer an OB marker and free relief from it is once again avaiiable.

[Tags:]

Tags: