News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Andrew Harvie

Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« on: February 11, 2025, 04:33:20 PM »
Ran is currently working on the updated 147 Custodians of the Game (+4), but in the time being, I was chatting with a couple friends on golf courses that would make your personal Custodians list, per the 147 Custodians criteria:

  • A course that provides engaging puzzles to solve beats one which does not.
  • A course where the ball is encouraged to run beats one where it is not.
  • A course where you can carry your bag at anytime beats one where you cannot.
  • A course where you can play quickly while walking, beats one where you cannot.
  • A course that you can enjoy at all ages beats one where you cannot.
  • A course with understated maintenance practices beats one with conspicuous green keeping.
  • A club that emphasizes the simple game of golf beats one which pursues the trappings of status.
  • A course you want to play again and again beats one you only wish to play annually.
I've always appreciated the list for putting places like Camden, Rawls, etc, in the spotlight, for they both embody the above sentiments. And, as a Canadian myself, I've always felt an immense amount of pride for our representation of 7 courses, fourth most of any nation!


Anyways, what course(s) would you add, based on the above criteria, to your own personal 147 Custodians list? I once wrote an article for Beyond The Contour nominating seven golf courses from Canada for consideration: Waskesiu, Grand-Mere, Tarandowah, Mount Bruno, Highlands Links, Wolf Creek (Old), and Victoria, which you can read here.


Forgive me if this thread has been created before, but let's run it back I guess!   

Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Adam Lawrence

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2025, 04:57:13 PM »
Oops... posted in wrong thread....
« Last Edit: February 11, 2025, 04:59:45 PM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net
Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting

'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' 'Up Top: the story of Landmand' (both forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all

Sean_A

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2025, 05:26:45 PM »
No surprises from me Andrew as I will add two criteria:

A course that is affordable over one that is dubiously priced.

In most cases, a course which is accessible over one that is exclusionary.

KINGTON
MUSSELBURGH OLD
SOUTHERNDOWN
ISLE OF HARRIS

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 12, 2025, 02:06:16 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Dumbarnie, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jason Topp

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2025, 01:11:29 PM »

My first thoughts:



Goswick
Northland
Woodlands (Melbourne)


I doubt description is needed for any of these options but they all seem to fit the criteria well.  In a general sense, each has evinced a unique kind of joy that many on the list have also delivered. 

Thomas Dai

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2025, 02:11:23 PM »
Interesting to re-read the GCA thread that followed the publication of Ran’s original 147 Custodians listing.
See - [size=78%]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66302.0.html[/size]
Unfortunately the text of Ran’s original detailed explanation behind the 147 as published in 2018 seems to have since been deleted/edited and replaced by some revised wording.
Atb

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2025, 03:12:18 PM »
For me in my CA corner of the world:


Northwood GC,
Corica North (unfinished 9-hole),
GGPGC,
Pacific Grove (yes, including the front nine you monsters),
And I could add Meadow Club over Pasa, only because walking is a factor, but I think both are a bit over the top on the gratuitous maintenance.


I’d add:
The Lido,
Talking Stick: O’odham,
But both obviously have gratuitous maintenance as resort courses.






Ben Malach

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2025, 03:27:41 PM »
Matt:


Why Corica? It's a fine golf course but its so broken in places.


I think when something opens down the road. You might have to take this one off the list.
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter
Eclectic Golf Design
Founder/Lead Designer

Ronald Montesano

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2025, 03:29:06 PM »
In Buffalo/Niagara: Cazenovia Park, Delaware Park (although the puzzles are quite odd!), Deerwood Fawn Nine, Ironwood, Byrncliff


Across New York State: Many of the state park courses, like Green Lakes, James Baird, Soaring Eagles, and the lesser-crayons at Bethpage, are tremendous.


If it's supposed to be an exclusive list, it's wrong to add more.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Alex_Hunter

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2025, 04:51:21 PM »
I was always surprised that Ran never included Highland Links in his Custodians list. It would be great to hear from Ran on that someday...

It was my favourite course until I played Jasper a few years ago and remains #2 on my personal favourites list. Since it's close to Cabot it's the course I recommend to international players more often than not. It's shocking how few have any knowledge of it, yet Cabot is a household name.


Outside of Canada the answer is easy. Elie.
@agolfhunter

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2025, 05:52:55 PM »
Why Corica? It's a fine golf course but its so broken in places.

I think when something opens down the road. You might have to take this one off the list.
I know we don't see eye to eye on it, but it's the type of golf I want to see more of. Highly walkable, playing it on the ground is acceptable, greens that favor approaching the hole in different ways. Are there some non-trivial, sub-optimal construction choices? Sure. You're the expert there. However, if we're talking about "custodians" within the concept of stewardship, I'd much rather see more complexes like the way Alameda has built up Corica than I would the way San Francisco has focused on Harding Park. (Note: Blasi's GGPGC was basically funded privately by non-profits, and not by the city).

Is it going to make my list of 150 if I get to play all the courses I'd like to? Probably not. I'll happily admit that I need to get out more.

Craig Sweet

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2025, 06:06:51 PM »
I would nominate the 9 hole goat track down the street where 90% of us fell in love with golf.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2025, 07:20:07 AM »
No surprises from me Andrew as I will add two criteria:

A course that is affordable over one that is dubiously priced.

In most cases, a course which is accessible over one that is exclusionary.

KINGTON
MUSSELBURGH OLD
SOUTHERNDOWN
ISLE OF HARRIS

Ciao


I am 100% in agreement with Sean in his last criteria, accessible fo all , which unfortunately would then decrease the original list considerably.
However , the nature of the beast that is this glorious game and the realism that many in the list are not truly accessible leaves us with a wide variety of courses that make up the illustrious 147+3.


My own glaring “omission” is Saunton

Sean_A

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2025, 08:22:08 AM »
No surprises from me Andrew as I will add two criteria:

A course that is affordable over one that is dubiously priced.

In most cases, a course which is accessible over one that is exclusionary.

KINGTON
MUSSELBURGH OLD
SOUTHERNDOWN
ISLE OF HARRIS

Ciao


I am 100% in agreement with Sean in his last criteria, accessible fo all , which unfortunately would then decrease the original list considerably.
However , the nature of the beast that is this glorious game and the realism that many in the list are not truly accessible leaves us with a wide variety of courses that make up the illustrious 147+3.


My own glaring “omission” is Saunton

MWP

I would give a pass to certain clubs which host USGA events etc and those which take exceptional care of important, landmark designs.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Dumbarnie, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2025, 09:32:36 AM »
No surprises from me Andrew as I will add two criteria:

A course that is affordable over one that is dubiously priced.

In most cases, a course which is accessible over one that is exclusionary.

KINGTON
MUSSELBURGH OLD
SOUTHERNDOWN
ISLE OF HARRIS

Ciao


I am 100% in agreement with Sean in his last criteria, accessible fo all , which unfortunately would then decrease the original list considerably.
However , the nature of the beast that is this glorious game and the realism that many in the list are not truly accessible leaves us with a wide variety of courses that make up the illustrious 147+3.


My own glaring “omission” is Saunton

MWP

I would give a pass to certain clubs which host USGA events etc and those which take exceptional care of important, landmark designs.

Ciao


I can go for that

Paul Jones

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2025, 12:08:40 PM »
I would add Sedge Valley and Ekwanok !!!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 12:11:31 PM by Paul Jones »
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Andrew Harvie

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2025, 02:25:26 PM »
I would add Sedge Valley and Ekwanok !!!


Love both. Great suggestions, and very different too!
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

DFarron

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2025, 03:53:57 PM »
Matt:


Why Corica? It's a fine golf course but its so broken in places.


I think when something opens down the road. You might have to take this one off the list.


How do you feel Corica is "broken"?

Mark Pearce

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2025, 05:26:20 PM »
For me, I’ve always been surprised that Elie didn’t make the original list but it has to be one.


I like Jason’s suggestion of Goswick, which seems to tick all the boxes.


Finally, Huntercombe seems like exactly the sort of place that belongs on this list,
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Kalen Braley

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2025, 05:34:06 PM »
Re Corica:

My only complaint would be is that its pretty cramped in spots. (The south course especially, but haven't played it since the re-do)

2 18 hole courses
1 9 hole course
Driving Range
Parking Lot with Clubhouse
Maintenance areas

According to Google Earth the entire area is less than 300 acres.

Mark Kiely

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2025, 06:51:15 PM »
I'm curious why Matt would mention Corica North specifically, especially considering it's in the midst of a renovation that doesn't open until late next month.


(I have no agenda with this post, just wondering why. I played South a couple summers ago, partly on David Tepper's recommendation and my general understanding that South is/was the superior course.)
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2025, 07:51:48 PM »
I'm curious why Matt would mention Corica North specifically, especially considering it's in the midst of a renovation that doesn't open until late next month.

(I have no agenda with this post, just wondering why. I played South a couple summers ago, partly on David Tepper's recommendation and my general understanding that South is/was the superior course.)
I think the unfinished Corica North is one of the courses that most meets the criterion laid out in the custodian list. Is it the "best" course in a ranking list... almost certainly not. Still, let's look at it:

    A course that provides engaging puzzles to solve beats one which does not.

Corica North is pretty strategic throughout. The major complaint I've heard is that it's "boring" for basically letting you play it wherever you want, with the benefits typically relating to pin location on the approach. A highlight for me here is the 5th green, which has a swale reminiscent of North Berwick's "Gate" hole, where you need to be very careful to reach the correct tier, and it might be worth laying up on this par five to do that. The 2nd green and fairway actually rewards player from playing it away from the green if they're not going for the green in two (and a penal pot bunker threatens that option). It's not as obvious and textbook as the O'odham course, but it's a lot of the same ideas.

    A course where the ball is encouraged to run beats one where it is not.

Here again, the fairways are wide as can be. Many of the ideal landing locations are places in lower areas where you can play it low and run it along the fairway to dip down into them. Most of the greens have run-on sections, but only from certain angles. The only heavy rough to worry about is heather-like stuff way outside the main play area. There are seven bunkers total, none of which force a carry unless the player has chosen to attack the green directly.

    A course where you can carry your bag at anytime beats one where you cannot.

Corica North, because it is unfinished, is walking only. The South course is a cart-fest most of the time.

    A course where you can play quickly while walking, beats one where you cannot.

The site is flat as can be, and the routing is suited for walking with maybe one awkward transition 8-to-9. The South course has many more problematic routing issues 5-to-6, 7-to-8, 10-to-11, 13-to-14, 17-to-18, and the 15th tee is dangerously in play for the 17th green. None of these issues is a deal breaker, but since it was specifically brought up, I think it's relevant.

    A course that you can enjoy at all ages beats one where you cannot.

Again, I think that the North course is much more gettable for all ages than the south. Most of the hazard is just wind and angles. Many low handicappers might complain that it's too short, but again that's not the criteria... which was age-related, not skill related.

    A course with understated maintenance practices beats one with conspicuous green keeping.

Here is the only one where Ben will likely yell at me. The course suffers from "catch basin disease." I posted about this course a long time ago without naming it, and it's because the architect just put catch basins everywhere. I'm sure an architect or enthusiast would gag at this, but I don't think it's relevant to maintenance in the way that this is proposed. There are seven bunkers total. Fairways are mostly one height with a vague-at-best second cut. It's a modest course with apparent modest maintenance... it's a muni for goodness sake.

Contrast this with the South course, which looks like it's probably got 10x the maintenance costs, with it's bunkers literally everywhere, it's dozen tee boxes on each hole, and it's multiple-cuts of rough.

    A club that emphasizes the simple game of golf beats one which pursues the trappings of status.

I mean. It's a simple course. The advantage from angles is subtle. The greens are very deliberate to make different approaches have different value. The only green that I think doesn't achieve this well is the 9th, which is clearly the worst hole on the course, and which I think leaves a sour taste in people's memory.

    A course you want to play again and again beats one you only wish to play annually.

I love playing here, especially when it's windy and the best play is a knock-down 6 iron on most approaches. I'd play a quick round there before work pretty regularly if I was an Alameda resident. Other people don't like it. I don't know how to come to consensus there. By my own admission, pretty much every very sophisticated golfer I've taken has disliked it, and every single barely carries a handicap player I've taken has loved it.

---

I'm talking about the unfinished Marc Logan design here. At the end of the day, if RTJII touches the front nine, who knows what I think of it. I have no idea what his work will mean for the course, and if they just make it a cart-forward place with routing issues (it looks like they will be extending some tees that will do this). I have no idea what his plan is for the back-nine. I know there will be consternation about ugly catch basins, but again, I don't really care. I'm just trying to play golf with my friends, not worship the mona lisa.

Ben doesn't love it, and we've talked about it before. I can definitely see his points. I just don't see things from the construction angle, because I literally know nothing when it comes to that stuff.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 08:19:03 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Sean_A

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 03:23:22 AM »
Ok, do folks think The Links Trust has been a good custodian of TOC? Good enough to be included on a list like this?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Dumbarnie, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mark Pearce

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 05:23:50 AM »
Ok, do folks think The Links Trust has been a good custodian of TOC? Good enough to be included on a list like this?

Ciao
Do we judge their custodianship of the game on TOC?  Because that's been well looked after, and we can't blame the Trust for the effect that technology has had on its relevance to the elite players.  Or do we judge on the entirety of what they do?  All seven courses and the way golf is in St Andrews?  I have a real issue standing on the 14th tee of the Eden and adding them to this list.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 08:42:32 AM »
Ok, do folks think The Links Trust has been a good custodian of TOC? Good enough to be included on a list like this?

Ciao
Do we judge their custodianship of the game on TOC?  Because that's been well looked after, and we can't blame the Trust for the effect that technology has had on its relevance to the elite players.  Or do we judge on the entirety of what they do?  All seven courses and the way golf is in St Andrews?  I have a real issue standing on the 14th tee of the Eden and adding them to this list.

I am thinking of fairway shrinkage with the two glaring examples of 16 and 17. 16 has been dumbed down to the point that the only line available is the one Jack said was strictly for amateurs.

Ciao
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:54:23 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Dumbarnie, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Simon Barrington

Re: Your Own Personal Custodians of the Game?
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 09:38:15 AM »
Ok, do folks think The Links Trust has been a good custodian of TOC? Good enough to be included on a list like this?

Ciao
Do we judge their custodianship of the game on TOC?  Because that's been well looked after, and we can't blame the Trust for the effect that technology has had on its relevance to the elite players.  Or do we judge on the entirety of what they do?  All seven courses and the way golf is in St Andrews?  I have a real issue standing on the 14th tee of the Eden and adding them to this list.
I am thinking of fairway shrinkage with the two glaring examples of 16 and 17. 16 has been dumbed down to the point that the only line available is the on Jack said was strictly for amateurs.
Ciao
Noting the shrinkage is on both sides...Braid played off the railway lines (they were not OOB back then on TOC) down the stretch on both 15th & 16th during the 1905 Open!


Tags: