OT: If the PGA TOUR is serious about slow play they should ..........

[Tim Gavrich]

What takes longer - walking 6,800 yards or walking 7,600 yards?

Is that really all you have to offer on this? Jeez. Though last time I think it was 7000 or 7400. Walking time due to distance isn't in the top three reasons why rounds take a long time. Find a new slant, please. It's like 10 minutes; you're not saving an hour. And if they walk that extra yardage and still have to wait on the next tee… it doesn't matter if it was 100 extra yards or 0 or 400.

If one is walking those distances without mandatory stops, then the answer is obvious.However, if one is waiting after every shot, its basically negligible.

YES.

Anyone who paid even remote attention to the 2022 Open knows how terrible the pace of play was the first two days. This is a big part of the reason.

No, it isn't. The Old Course has a bunch of drivable holes, it's often windy, there are pot bunkers, shared fairways, crossovers (around 7/11)… etc. The length of the course is, again, not in the top three reasons.

Early rounds of the 2022 Open Championship took about 6 hours. If I recall correctly, the typical time target for daily rounds at The Old Course is 3 hours and 57 minutes.


If you would like to break down where those extra two hours came from for us, I think that would offer a great deal.

[Bret Lawrence]

The Connecticut State Golf Association has acknowledged their problem with pace of play in one-day tournaments is overcrowded golf courses.  They have actually implemented 10 minute gaps in the field for every hour of tee times.  They offer tee times in ten minute intervals at :00, 10, :20, 30, 40.  The :50 slot is left empty to purposely create a break in the traffic. 


The gaps are generally closed quickly and very few groups are sitting around waiting to play their golf shots. The pace of play has improved because the CSGA has put their trust in the players and removed some traffic from the golf course. In essence, they have given us more time to play quickly! (As backwards as that sounds).


As well as this pace of play procedure works, it’s not perfect.  We still play a couple of Desmond Muirhead courses on the yearly rotation where each hole is a train wreck waiting to happen.  These courses generally take longer to play, but players courtesy is usually extended because it’s been on the rotation for so many years and you know what you are signing up for. It’s only a matter of time until your train wreck comes.


It’s important to note that the CSGA did have to sacrifice 4 entry fees per hour, which the USGA and PGA Tour may not be willing or capable of doing. They believe it was a small price to pay for greater customer satisfaction and repeat plays.


Until they reduce the number of golfers on the golf course they are probably going to have to rely on the “Wave Up” as their number one strategy.  The wave reminds me of my days playing at Rancho Park in the 1990’s during the Tiger Boom.  5-somes on every hole, three groups on Par 3 tees.  The wave up was like the group in front of you waving the white flag, finally surrendering to the group behind them that they have no nerves left, and nowhere to go!

[Kalen Braley]

What takes longer - walking 6,800 yards or walking 7,600 yards?

Is that really all you have to offer on this? Jeez. Though last time I think it was 7000 or 7400. Walking time due to distance isn't in the top three reasons why rounds take a long time. Find a new slant, please. It's like 10 minutes; you're not saving an hour. And if they walk that extra yardage and still have to wait on the next tee… it doesn't matter if it was 100 extra yards or 0 or 400.

If one is walking those distances without mandatory stops, then the answer is obvious.However, if one is waiting after every shot, its basically negligible.

YES.

Anyone who paid even remote attention to the 2022 Open knows how terrible the pace of play was the first two days. This is a big part of the reason.

No, it isn't. The Old Course has a bunch of drivable holes, it's often windy, there are pot bunkers, shared fairways, crossovers (around 7/11)… etc. The length of the course is, again, not in the top three reasons.

Early rounds of the 2022 Open Championship took about 6 hours. If I recall correctly, the typical time target for daily rounds at The Old Course is 3 hours and 57 minutes.


If you would like to break down where those extra two hours came from for us, I think that would offer a great deal.

Tim,

I would hazard a guess that a big chunk of that extra time was due to the fact that with massive distance gains there are so many drivable, (or at least near reachable), par 4s.

Throw in tricky green surrounds with multiple slopes, angles, and speeds to be dealt with, there is extra grinding and processing on those chips and pitches.


P.S.  It was suggested earlier in the thread that longer courses take more time.

As a counter-point to that, a couple of weeks ago the tournament held at Pebble was:
- Only 6900 yards for the weekend rounds, very short by tour standards.
-  Limited field event with only the "best" 80 players .
- Completely devoid of amateurs that would slow play with shenanigans and/or crap play.

  Yet with near perfect conditions on Sunday, final rounds still took well north of 5 hours.

[JohnVDB]

P.S.  It was suggested earlier in the thread that longer courses take more time.

As a counter-point to that, a couple of weeks ago the tournament held at Pebble was:
- Only 6900 yards for the weekend rounds, very short by tour standards.
-  Limited field event with only the "best" 80 players .
- Completely devoid of amateurs that would slow play with shenanigans and/or crap play.

  Yet with near perfect conditions on Sunday, final rounds still took well north of 5 hours.

Kalen,
You are incorrect about Pebble.  Using Eastern Time, the last group teed off at 1:15 PM.  The broadcast went off the air at 6:30PM. The tournament had been over for more than 15 minutes by that time as they interviewed Rory, Shane and did a full recap.  CBS has to fill because it finished earlier than expected. This was even with a two-tee start that, like my post above on Phoenix, prevented play from being much faster than 5 hours. I know this because I almost made a post about Pebble in this group similar to the one I made about Phoenix, but didn't get around to it.

Now, Torrey Pines the week before was bad.

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  It was suggested earlier in the thread that longer courses take more time.

As a counter-point to that, a couple of weeks ago the tournament held at Pebble was:
- Only 6900 yards for the weekend rounds, very short by tour standards.
-  Limited field event with only the "best" 80 players .
- Completely devoid of amateurs that would slow play with shenanigans and/or crap play.

  Yet with near perfect conditions on Sunday, final rounds still took well north of 5 hours.

Kalen,
You are incorrect about Pebble.  Using Eastern Time, the last group teed off at 1:15 PM.  The broadcast went off the air at 6:30PM. The tournament had been over for more than 15 minutes by that time as they interviewed Rory, Shane and did a full recap.  CBS has to fill because it finished earlier than expected. This was even with a two-tee start that, like my post above on Phoenix, prevented play from being much faster than 5 hours. I know this because I almost made a post about Pebble in this group similar to the one I made about Phoenix, but didn't get around to it.

Now, Torrey Pines the week before was bad.

John,

I didn't think they used two tee starts on the weekend at Pebble, but i stand corrected.

The premise still stands thou regarding extra course length as it relates to time to finish.  The slow play is almost entirely due to fidgeting and over analytical play and in this case tournament setup.  Even in majors, we've seen the first groups get out and finish on weekend rounds in far less than 4 hours. (when no one is in front and they aren't in contention).

[Thomas Dai]

At elite Pro level any group holding up a group behind shall be required as a condition of participation to let the following group through. Any group that is required to let more than one group through shall be disqualified and leave the course (and thus forfeit any prize money!).
Atb

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim,

I would hazard a guess that a big chunk of that extra time was due to the fact that with massive distance gains there are so many drivable, (or at least near reachable), par 4s.

Throw in tricky green surrounds with multiple slopes, angles, and speeds to be dealt with, there is extra grinding and processing on those chips and pitches.


P.S.  It was suggested earlier in the thread that longer courses take more time.

As a counter-point to that, a couple of weeks ago the tournament held at Pebble was:
- Only 6900 yards for the weekend rounds, very short by tour standards.
-  Limited field event with only the "best" 80 players .
- Completely devoid of amateurs that would slow play with shenanigans and/or crap play.

  Yet with near perfect conditions on Sunday, final rounds still took well north of 5 hours.

I guess my relatively simple question about whether it takes longer to walk a 6,800-yard course or a 7,400 yard one didn't sufficiently suggest this, but yes, the "massive distance gains" are at the root of all of this. That it has become necessary to push courses to their breaking point - and that is where The Old Course is to anyone with two eyes - is an existential threat to professional/elite competitive side of golf on multiple fronts, and pace of play is obviously one of them.


Although the best golfers hit an overwhelming number of drives both very far and relatively straight, the fact that they are using hundreds of yards more golf course than they used to makes the dispersion patterns - both one-off and in the aggregate - more varied than when they hit the ball shorter. Bigger dispersion means more time spent not just walking farther downrange to tee shots (and backtracking to and from new tee boxes), but also taking more time to plan the next shot from thick rough, behind trees, along Temporary Immovable Obstructions, etc. If you can't see how this can have a significant effect on pace of play - beyond the "negligible" or "not top three" dismissals you and Erik have proffered, I don't know what to say.


I don't know whether you've played Pinehurst No. 2 and No. 3, but the difference in time taken to play both golf courses is profound. And before you protest that there's a bigger difference in max yardage between the two (7,500 vs. 5,200), consider that a) the difference in par (70/71/72 vs. 68) stretches that number, and b), a large portion of people are playing No. 2 from less than 1,000 yards more than they're playing No. 3, and still the pace of play is a solid hour different.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If you would like to break down where those extra two hours came from for us, I think that would offer a great deal.

You've effectively argued against your own point: they didn't spend two hours walking an extra 600 yards.

I guess my relatively simple question about whether it takes longer to walk a 6,800-yard course or a 7,400 yard one didn't sufficiently suggest this, but yes, the "massive distance gains" are at the root of all of this.

It doesn't, because there would be more waiting on shorter courses, as more par fives and par fours are reachable. The longer course may decrease waiting.

Here's the thing, too: Nicklaus was complaining about slow play. It's not a new thing. It is ramped up with increased purse size, sports psychologists stressing things they stress, more television cameras showing players everywhere, etc. But it's not entirely about distance or entirely new.

Bigger dispersion means more time spent not just walking farther downrange to tee shots (and backtracking to and from new tee boxes), but also taking more time to plan the next shot from thick rough, behind trees, along Temporary Immovable Obstructions, etc. If you can't see how this can have a significant effect on pace of play - beyond the "negligible" or "not top three" dismissals you and Erik have proffered, I don't know what to say.

a) I don't think there's much evidence to support that golfers are hitting wilder shots these days. In fact, the evidence I've seen supports the opposite.
b) The extra 600 yards is nowhere near the top three things.

I don't know whether you've played Pinehurst No. 2 and No. 3, but the difference in time taken to play both golf courses is profound. And before you protest that there's a bigger difference in max yardage between the two (7,500 vs. 5,200), consider that a) the difference in par (70/71/72 vs. 68) stretches that number

You can't just say "the difference in par stretches that number" because then you arrive at a point where you're comparing a nine-hole par-three course played twice at a par of 54 and saying "but the par stretches that 3104 yards number."

[JohnVDB]

Erik said: Nicklaus was complaining about slow play.


Of course, he was frequently pointed to as a slow player.


I’ve timed groups out of curiosity a number of times.  Players usually walk 100 yards in about 1 minute.  So the amount of time used walking 600 extra yards isn’t the problem.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Of course, he was frequently pointed to as a slow player.

I’ve timed groups out of curiosity a number of times.  Players usually walk 100 yards in about 1 minute.  So the amount of time used walking 600 extra yards isn’t the problem.

We are in agreement there. And slow play isn't a recent issue.

[Kalen Braley]

Erik said: Nicklaus was complaining about slow play.


Of course, he was frequently pointed to as a slow player.


I’ve timed groups out of curiosity a number of times.  Players usually walk 100 yards in about 1 minute.  So the amount of time used walking 600 extra yards isn’t the problem.

And combine that with wait times and its basically nil.

Whether you walk to a tee box right next to the green and wait 3 minutes to tee off, or take 1/2 minute to walk backwards to a tee 50 yards back, and then wait 2.5 minutes to tee off...its still the same 3 minute wait.

[JohnVDB]

Erik said: Nicklaus was complaining about slow play.


Of course, he was frequently pointed to as a slow player.


I’ve timed groups out of curiosity a number of times.  Players usually walk 100 yards in about 1 minute.  So the amount of time used walking 600 extra yards isn’t the problem.

And combine that with wait times and its basically nil.

Whether you walk to a tee box right next to the green and wait 3 minutes to tee off, or take 1/2 minute to walk backwards to a tee 50 yards back, and then wait 2.5 minutes to tee off...its still the same 3 minute wait.

If you’re waiting you’re not the problem.

[Tim Gavrich]

I’ve timed groups out of curiosity a number of times.  Players usually walk 100 yards in about 1 minute.  So the amount of time used walking 600 extra yards isn’t the problem.

John, it's not just the walk, but the downstream implications of playing a significantly longer golf course. As I alluded to above, the move from 275 to 325 yards as a new relative norm of driving distance means that even though 460cc drivers are absurdly easy to hit, the potential for greater downrange dispersion inevitably puts a larger time strain on the process of playing than the 275-yard dispersion pattern.


That, plus the longer walk (where 600 extra course yards is more like 1,200 extra walking yards because of double-backs to new tee boxes), adds significant time to a round, and is one of numerous reasons to regulate golf equipment so that our kids and grandkids might have a chance at playing golf outdoors if they are not billionaires.

[Tim Gavrich]

If you would like to break down where those extra two hours came from for us, I think that would offer a great deal.

You've effectively argued against your own point: they didn't spend two hours walking an extra 600 yards.

No, I was giving you the opportunity to explain why threesomes of the world's best golfers in the 2022 Open Championship took two hours longer to play The Old Course than regular golfers are allowed to take. Please enlighten us!

[Mark Pearce]

Tim,


Have you got any evidence at all that the increase in time taken to play a round is because players are spending more time thinking about shots because they're more frequently in difficult spots, or is it just a hunch?  And how are they shooting lower scores if they're in worse positions more frequently?

[Craig Sweet]

As far as I can tell the problem is all the monkeying around. Pre shot routines, conversations with caddies, and double and triple checking their putting line...it all adds up.   

[Erik J. Barzeski]

No, I was giving you the opportunity to explain why threesomes of the world's best golfers in the 2022 Open Championship took two hours longer to play The Old Course than regular golfers are allowed to take. Please enlighten us!

You've already died on this hill.

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