Changes tastes…changing quality?

[Ben Sims]

Lately I’ve seen a few comments on what I consider the same theme. That is, certain courses being favored aren’t a result of those courses being legitimately better than other courses, but rather, ticking the boxes of changing tastes.


When Tom wrote that Old Barnwell (and Tree Farm) were probably 7’s on his scale, I quickly went for my Confidential Guides to see what else was a 7. Once I stopped snarling, I realized that a metric load of his 8’s and 7’s are way different from each other. And I couldn’t really identify a “trend” that those courses were meeting. Their quality was all over the map!


Yet courses like North Berwick or Gamble Sands (to name two 8’s or above considered fun and quirky) seem to get dinged by many for meeting “trends”.


What gives? Are these courses truly good? Or are they just appealing and pandering to a certain segment?

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:


This might be better addressed on the other thread I just started.


But you would have to explain your second paragraph.

[Ben Sims]

Tom,


Well shucks. I didn’t see your thread. Similar thoughts and probably best addressed there. But before we sign off here and toss these thoughts onto your thread, I’ll explain the second paragraph in my OP.


I was initially taken aback by the 7 you gave OB and TF. I even thought it could have an element of the “coaches kid” thing where you can’t say too many good things about the Renaissance tree (I think Nick Saban would adopt Kirby Smart if he could but he settled for just merely trying to beat him until he retired  ). I obviously think OB is better than your definition of a 7 and I initially wanted to see what company a 7 was in the latest versions of the Guide. Rather than confirm my “outrage”, I found that your ratings encompass courses of all tastes and kinds. I couldn’t identify trends based on your ratings. I still disagree with the 7 for reasons related to how you define an 8, but that’s really it.


Hope that clarifies. That said I don’t want to derail my thoughts about trends vs “subjective quality”. This isn’t about OB as much as it was Ally saying NBWL met some trends and that’s why people like it. Then I went back and found lots of other comments relatively recently about course ratings and trends.

[Tom_Doak]

Thanks, Ben, I hoped that's what you meant.


And yes, I am going to be a tough judge on Brian and Blake, because I know how talented they are and they shouldn't think they don't have more to learn.  Just look where David Kidd went after his first course was rated so highly 


Also in general, if I'm between a 7 and an 8 on some course, I'm likely to start at 7.  Especially since so many people see a close correlation between an 8 and the top 100 in the world rankings.  I should probably have 150 courses as an 8 instead of ~ 110 so that wouldn't come up, but I didn't think about that when giving out the numbers to start with, and it's too late now.

[Ira Fishman]

Ben,


There definitely is recency bias that goes both ways. Courses become fashionable which can be a good thing—more people have and should see NB, CB, Elie, and Brora for example. I hope that Carne is part of the next fashion wave. But courses can seem to lose some attention when they should not. We played Cape Kidnappers last month. After admiring it, it struck me that even though it is only 25 years old, it does not seem to get the attention it once did and assuredly deserves. Yes, I know it remains high in the rankings but the editorial discussion seems to have dropped.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

We played Cape Kidnappers last month. After admiring it, it struck me that even though it is only 25 years old, it does not seem to get the attention it once did and assuredly deserves. Yes, I know it remains high in the rankings but the editorial discussion seems to have dropped.

Ira:


Yes, that's a good example.  It is a great place and arguably more unique than a lot of new courses.  But Cape Kidnappers is not part of the trend of sandy, rumply golf, so it's been usurped by Tara Iti and now Te Arai, even in its own country.

[Sean_A]

It seems North Berwick is often pegged as a high flyer course in the rankings. That’s true, but it’s also true that the course is one of the most famous on the planet without the aid of tv or championships. In my lifetime NB has always been signalled out as a must see in Scotland . Bottom line is that once rankings took off North Berwick’s ranking stock would rise to meet its fame. I don’t believe recent trends had much at all to with its success.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

It seems North Berwick is often pegged as a high flyer course in the rankings. That’s true, but it’s also true that the course is one of the most famous on the planet without the aid of tv or championships. In my lifetime NB has always been signalled out as a must see in Scotland . Bottom line is that once rankings took off North Berwick’s ranking stock would rise to meet its fame. I don’t believe recent trends had much at all to with its success.

Ciao

Trends:


1.  Courses with great ocean views
2.  Courses with template holes

[Ira Fishman]

It seems North Berwick is often pegged as a high flyer course in the rankings. That’s true, but it’s also true that the course is one of the most famous on the planet without the aid of tv or championships. In my lifetime NB has always been signalled out as a must see in Scotland . Bottom line is that once rankings took off North Berwick’s ranking stock would rise to meet its fame. I don’t believe recent trends had much at all to with its success.

Ciao

Sean,


Until perhaps 15 years ago (or even less), Americans (no disrespect to my fellow citizens) would race around to play the Rota plus maybe RD. That has changed for the better (other than the crowded tee times). My two plays at NB will remain cherished. I understand your recent post about 5-6 and 8-9, but do not agree fully, especially re 8-9 where the bunkering is really good.


Ira

[Sean_A]

It seems North Berwick is often pegged as a high flyer course in the rankings. That’s true, but it’s also true that the course is one of the most famous on the planet without the aid of tv or championships. In my lifetime NB has always been signalled out as a must see in Scotland . Bottom line is that once rankings took off North Berwick’s ranking stock would rise to meet its fame. I don’t believe recent trends had much at all to with its success.

Ciao

Sean,


Until perhaps 15 years ago (or even less), Americans (no disrespect to my fellow citizens) would race around to play the Rota plus maybe RD. That has changed for the better (other than the crowded tee times). My two plays at NB will remain cherished. I understand your recent post about 5-6 and 8-9, but do not agree fully, especially re 8-9 where the bunkering is really good.

Ira

Your friends didn’t read books then. Folks I knew had NB firmly on the list to play. NB is littered in classic golf literature. Being down the road from Muirfield helped!

Tom…ocean views have always been popular. NB was known as the Biarritz of Scotland. I knew about the Redan as a famous copycat hole before I ever heard of Raynor or Macdonald….and that must have been about 1990.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:


On the ocean view thing, the four links courses with the best water views are North Berwick, Dornoch, Cruden Bay and Muirfield.*  They’ve all trended higher . . . while Troon and Carnoustie and Birkdale trend lower.


* I always forget Turnberry because I don’t really think of it as a links.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

On the ocean view thing, the four links courses with the best water views are North Berwick, Dornoch, Cruden Bay and Muirfield.*  They’ve all trended higher . . . while Troon and Carnoustie and Birkdale trend lower.

* I always forget Turnberry because I don’t really think of it as a links.

Yes, but part of the reason NB was famous before ratings mattered is the views. Not sure what you are saying. I don’t think NB suddenly jumped up in the rankings because of views. If so, what about Dunbar?

Imo Troon has better sea views than Muirfield. 💁

Ciao

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