Is Seminole Untouchable?

[Andrew Harvie]

I just got back from two weeks in Florida, mostly travelling around seeing many of the new golf courses that either just opened, or are under construction. I feel like, as long as I've been paying attention to golf courses, there's always "it's better than Seminole" as a metric people use to hyperbolically uplift their favourite golf courses in the state, be it Calusa Pines, Jupiter Hills, even Coore & Crenshaw's McArthur, etc—but they're always being compared to Seminole, which speaks volumes to me, and as much as we all hate rankings, nothing has even come close to being ranked near Seminole on Golf Digest, Golf Magazine, Top 100 Golf Courses, etc etc etc. LINKS just ranked Seminole behind Calusa Pines on their "LINKS 100," but whatever.


Anyway, when I was touring High Grove, I, too, compared the property as probably the best piece of ground I've seen in Florida other than Seminole. High Grove is primarily dominated by rolling sand, and it's hilly, so that gives it a true advantage in Florida where most of the golf courses are pretty flat.


My question: in our lifetime, will we see a golf course overtake Seminole as Florida's top dog? Is that even possible? The combination of elevation change and next to the ocean brings a slew of benefits nothing in Hobe Sound can re-create, no matter how much talent is there—but that doesn't mean someone couldn't build a golf course at Seminole's equal. Ross' routing is superb, also—if it's possible, it would be a bona fide masterpiece. I'm sure there's a property out there that has similar advantages Ross got to use nearly one hundred years, but 


Is there another state with such a wide gap between the 1st and 2nd best? 


Edit: this is a timely thread with TD's thread on groupthink!

[Tim Martin]

From my experience nothing is really close for the two that are listed below. Just my take.

Connecticut- Yale GC
Vermont- Ekwanok CC

[Tom_Doak]

Edit: this is a timely thread with TD's thread on groupthink!

Yes, Andrew, it is; and no, I do not think any course in Florida will ever be allowed to pass Seminole in the rankings.  Why?


1.  I don't think anyone will be able to build a golf course right on the ocean.


2.  Seminole has history, Hogan, and uber-powerful members behind it.  If you're going to rate another course higher, you had better be prepared to kiss your chances of going back to Seminole goodbye.


3.  Seminole is a great piece of land for golf.  It's not the greatest ever, and someone MIGHT find better land somewhere in Florida, but it will take some looking.


4.  Seminole has wind, from different directions, nearly every day.  That's a huge part of why I respect the design so much, it is a big part of the challenge and variety the course provides.


5.  Seminole is where the money is.  Other courses are a much longer drive for the people whose opinions count.




So, yes, Seminole is one of the many best-in-state Sacred Cows.  Want another?  How about Sand Hills?

[Tom_Doak]

P.S.  I have a clause in my contract for Sandglass that if it is ever rated above Seminole, the client owes me a big bonus.  Who says I don't have a sense of humor?

[Andrew Harvie]

P.S.  I have a clause in my contract for Sandglass that if it is ever rated above Seminole, the client owes me a big bonus.  Who says I don't have a sense of humor?

This actually made me laugh out loud 

[Craig Sweet]

Montana- RCCC

[John Foley]

Until you can figure out how to remove exclusivity and water views from the opinion of a golf course, this one will never change.

[Andrew Harvie]

Until you can figure out how to remove exclusivity and water views from the opinion of a golf course, this one will never change.

Is it water views, or is it the benefits that come from being so close to the ocean? As Tom mentioned, Seminole has a lot of variety in wind direction and the routing handles that rather well. I played it when there was, at most, half a club of wind, but I don't think that takes anything away from the brilliance of 2-6, 11, or 16-18.

[Joel_Stewart]

Anything is possible, especially with big money behind a project.


Didn't TPC Sawgrass jump above it a few years ago?

Lastly, if the proposed work isn't well received, it could drop and another Florida course moves ahead.  History shows that bad work like at Medinah, Olympic or many others, has a negative effect on the ratings. 

[Tom_Doak]

Anything is possible, especially with big money behind a project.


Didn't TPC Sawgrass jump above it a few years ago?

Lastly, if the proposed work isn't well received, it could drop and another Florida course moves ahead.  History shows that bad work like at Medinah, Olympic or many others, has a negative effect on the ratings. 

_Didn't TPC Sawgrass jump above it a few years ago?Lastly, if the proposed work isn't well received, it could drop and another Florida course moves ahead.  History shows that bad work like at Medinah, Olympic or many others, has a negative effect on the ratings. 

[Joel_Stewart]

Thanks Tom.

[Andrew Harvie]

Anything is possible, especially with big money behind a project.


Didn't TPC Sawgrass jump above it a few years ago?

Lastly, if the proposed work isn't well received, it could drop and another Florida course moves ahead.  History shows that bad work like at Medinah, Olympic or many others, has a negative effect on the ratings. 

_Didn't TPC Sawgrass jump above it a few years ago?Lastly, if the proposed work isn't well received, it could drop and another Florida course moves ahead.  History shows that bad work like at Medinah, Olympic or many others, has a negative effect on the ratings. 

FWIW, there's been a lot of misinformation about Seminole's proposed work and they are NOT raising the golf course.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have only played Seminole a couple of times. I was there in April of last year. The first thing that strikes me is the routing and how Ross used the big dune on the course. The bunkering is brilliant and the conditions are fast and firm. It doesn't knock your socks off, but when you add up your score and think about each hole, you think, "Boy, is this a good course." So, no, I don't think Florida has a better course.

[Ronald Montesano]

How wide is the gap between it and Mountain Lake?

[Rob Marshall]

What's really "untouchable" is the access to Seminole to participate in this thread, which personally I'm good with. I get how exclusive the club is and respect that and the members. Been a member at a private club myself for 35 years.


I have a friend who is a great golfer. Won our city championship twice. He grew up at private club and knows how to act. He got on as an unescorted guest 15 years ago + or minus. He told me it was one of the worst experiences of his golfing life, They weren't allowed to use the range and were basically told to get off the property as soon as they finished the round. He told me it was the most uncomfortable he had ever been on a golf course. I have other friends who have played with a member and said it was great. Tremendous experience.


These threads are great to learn about these exclusive courses but how many people here have really had the opportunity to play there to be able to participate?


Sorry, Shouldn't matter. Anyone with insight adds value here, My bad,

[Tom_Doak]

FWIW, there's been a lot of misinformation about Seminole's proposed work and they are NOT raising the golf course.

Seminole is so untouchable that you feel obliged to post this to make sure they don’t get mad at you.   

[Kalen Braley]

I wonder if this is unique to Seminole at all.

Think of major areas with prominent golden era courses like LA, Philly, Chicago, NY, etc how often does a heir apparent get supplanted there?  Guessing not often.

Given Bandon, Sand Valley, Streamsong or even a Sand Hills, for the most part seems like you gotta build em where they ain't to get into the legit DS 8-10 rarefied air...

[Colin Sheehan]

Tom,
You basically telegraphed this topic 30 years ago. Don't you recall how your finished your intro to the Florida section of the Confidential Guide?: "...there are more than 1000 courses in Florida. I'll take Seminole; you can have the other 999."

Maybe Jupiter Hills could have been better in another time with another architect and land plan. But in the end, for the 1000-plus courses in the state, how many truly have any holes along the ocean with a large, profound natural sandy ridge? Ocean holes and terrain are each extremely uncommon in that state.

And the Seminole experience is privileged and special. It is like going back and time and it's fun to see yet another old club with a busy tee sheet that manages to get everyone around quickly. Maybe too quickly! There is no dilly-dallying at the Nole. You get 4h 30m from arrival to departure. That's 15 minutes to warm up, 3h 45m for the round, and 30 minutes for lunch with one drink. And then you are off. Captains of industry flee the grounds at 5:45pm to avoid cutting it too close to the 6pm deadline.

I like that High Grove gets a shout out. It may not be on the water, but it isn't a fair fight pitting it against all the cut-and-fill projects happening closer to the coasts. 

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