Old Barnwell v The Tree Farm

[Michael Chadwick]

I'd prefer the thread be Old Barnwell & The Tree Farm rather than versus, because what's worth celebrating is how different the two courses are from one another despite their proximity and similar opening years. Tree Farm possesses a calming sense of intimacy and isolation on its property. You feel the presence of the surrounding woods more acutely, the land never lacks in scale, and I've noted elsewhere my fondness for the restraint particularly in the front nine and the surprising number of green sites without bunkers. My favorite hole is the 5th, even though I didn't have to deal with the Kyebrows!   


Old Barnwell is brawny, almost unnervingly open off the tee, because you feel like you're going to get baited into a wrong line, and the clarity of the question reveals itself the closer you get to the green (or in my case, as I was walking off it). I felt like Old Barnwell had me thinking about where I was trying to put my ball more than most American courses I've seen. But maybe I'm already damaged goods in this regard because I've gone with driver down to 7iron off the tee at Ballyneal's 12th--and still have little assurance of what's the best way to handle that hole! 


I had 36 hole days at both courses on back to back days last February. My scores were nearly identical across all four rounds oddly. The difference in how those strokes accumulated was from screwing up a few drives at TF but putting better on those greens, whereas I was always in play at OB but then screwing things up closer to the hole. I wouldn't consider Old Barnwell harder, nor a harder walk, but more intellectually demanding. 
 
When I fly across the country to visit Aiken again, I'll be disappointed if I miss either of these courses. The variety between them, and their mutual high-quality, results in a special combination for members and guests who have friends at each. I think Tom is one point too low on the Doak scale for one of the courses. I know I'm keeping my opinions in the middle, but I adore both, and look forward to seeing how the clubs continue to express their own characters now that lodging is completed at Tree Farm and getting closer at OB.


And while we're at it, Broomsedge also appears to have differentiated itself from both Tree Farm and Old Barnwell. Amazing that the region can lend itself to such an array of architectural and aesthetic variety.

[John Kirk]

But maybe I'm already damaged goods in this regard because I've gone with driver down to 7iron off the tee at Ballyneal's 12th--and still have little assurance of what's the best way to handle that hole! 

A:  Hit the bunny down the left side and leave yourself a wedge from the pocket over there.

[Tim Gallant]

I'm not quite ready to give up on this thread. I'm surprised there isn't more discussion. While I've probably read more about both courses than all other new builds combined, I feel a lot of the conversation has centred on the vs. part, rather than what makes them individually unique/interesting/philosophically different.


In light of the recent threads about group think and discussion, it would be great to get some more input here, especially as the amazing individuals who helped build these courses are GCA members So:


@zac, was there something about TF that turned out different to how you wanted it to on the course (good or indifferent)? What are some of your favourite greens to putt on and why? What about favourite shots to play. As a PGA Tour pro, are there any shots that you think might make a very good player nervous, or ones that really suit your eye personally?


@Nick S, same first question about OB - anything that turned out different to how you thought it might based on your initial conversations with Brian and Blake? Anything that you learned through the design/build process that might not be obvious to us mere mortals? Also, now knowing what the Big course is like, is there something you'd like the third course to be/not be as a riff off the first?


@Brian S / Blake, you've talked about the Lido being inspirational, but how important was Llanerch / other consulting gigs in testing out some different ideas before bringing that to a new build like OB? Is there something that turned out well at OB that you'd like to try some more in the future? Every course is site specific, but is there an element or style at OB that you feel resonates with the type of golf you want to design/build moving forward?


Others, let's hear it. From 'this is the best course i've played' to 'I don't get it'. Let's get some good conversation going

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tim,


How many on this site have actually played both courses?


I’ll ask a counter-question: Name any course designed by a TD current or past associate (including Hanse, DeVries et al) that Tom has given higher than a 7? Why do you think OB or TF is better than all of them?

[Tim Gallant]

Tim,


How many on this site have actually played both courses?


I’ll ask a counter-question: Name any course designed by a TD current or past associate (including Hanse, DeVries et al) that Tom has given higher than a 7? Why do you think OB or TF is better than all of them?

If social media is to be believed, then every single one of us on GCA has played both 


I’ll come back on your second question tomorrow, which deserves a more considered response.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tim,


How many on this site have actually played both courses?


I’ll ask a counter-question: Name any course designed by a TD current or past associate (including Hanse, DeVries et al) that Tom has given higher than a 7? Why do you think OB or TF is better than all of them?

If social media is to be believed, then every single one of us on GCA has played both 

That’s part of my problem. Social media is like a herd of sheep.

[Nick Schreiber]

Tim, thanks for the questions and continued engagement around this thread. I’m not on social media, so my ego-fueled dopamine hits come mostly on this website when I see a mention of Old Barnwell!

I’ll provide a separate response to your questions, but before I do that, I want to share a story about my first time playing at Tree Farm. We were still under construction at OB, with only 7 holes that had been completed when I had my first chance to experience The Tree Farm’s preview play in late April 2023. Though the course was still very much “in-process”, I was blown away by the routing and the scale of the place. When I say scale, I’m not just talking about “bigness” – there are moments at the Tree Farm that are remarkably intimate (my favorite among these is the 6^th green site) – I’m talking about the ability of the holes to accordion between the two extremes.
 
I left the property with a pit in my stomach. Though I never viewed our two clubs in the “us vs. them” terms generally presented in the very niche world of golf media, I definitely feared that Old Barnwell would never be able to match the achievements of Kye, Zac, and Tom. That previously mentioned ego of mine, for the first time in the entire development process, was selfishly concerned that the golf architecture nerds on this site and elsewhere would classify OB on a lower level than the other new course across town. I was jealous, and in some ways remain so!
 
What I couldn’t have known then was just how different the courses would be from one another, and as a complete amateur in the world of golf course development, I didn’t appreciate how two very different pieces of land would challenge the designer/builders to do very different things. Apples and oranges, and all that. Though I’m biased, I think it’s fair to say that both groups succeeded in producing exceptional golf courses. Having had the chance to play TTF five and a half times now, including once with Zac and 10 holes in miserably rainy conditions with Kye, I can unequivocally state that it’s one of my favorite golf courses. Each visit reveals something new, and while I find most of the ink is devoted to its finishing stretch of 13-18, I think you could make a more compelling argument that holes 4-11 contain the course’s pinnacle. But of course, that’s part of what it makes TTF so good, that two golf tragics can share a drink on the porch behind the wonderfully situated 18^th green and argue about what stretch of holes constitutes the best golf on the property with neither being wrong or right.

[Tim Gallant]

Tim,


How many on this site have actually played both courses?


I’ll ask a counter-question: Name any course designed by a TD current or past associate (including Hanse, DeVries et al) that Tom has given higher than a 7? Why do you think OB or TF is better than all of them?

Ally,

Thanks for the questions. I had a quick scan and Tom gave an 8 to Cape Wickham, which I believe is the highest from a former associate. However, that’s slightly misleading as most of Hanse’s best known courses weren’t online when the books came out, and (as has been discussed here), Tom is pretty balanced at giving praise to contemporaries (his C&C scores are in-line and maybe even slightly higher than his co-authors).

Re: Old Barnwell itself, I mulled it over, and I hasten to add I am a mere amateur. But, in my mind, Old Barnwell does a few things that I think set it apart from others:

- It has been talked about (by Brian S no less) that Old Barnwell balances the natural with the unnatural. While the obvious will be to point to the steeplechases, I find greensites like the 16th much more interesting. I believe Brian talked about being intentional with not trying to hide the fact that something is unnatural, which gives a slightly different stylistic look, but also impacts on play. For example, the 16th green has much more of a Braid-esq benched green, which means the miss left is likely to be more troublesome than if they tapered the left side more to blend in with the natural tilt of the land. I found a few examples where the decision to not blend created interesting looks, interesting choices and unique shots (at least for a modern).

- To the above, I’ve not played a new design that has shifted so dramatically from Tom and Bill’s core tenant, which aligns with one of Mackenzie’s 13 rules (discussed on the other thread). I like it.

- We talk about most modern courses pandering to the masses (especially off the tee), but I really feel like OB is a chess match where there is no right or wrong answer. Again, Brian S talked on a pod about risk reward being more than just ‘If you take on that bunker and succeed, you’ll get the perfect approach spot.’ Instead, it always felt like a trade-off, and how you answer that trade-off depends on your own individual strengths and comfort levels. 12 and 13 are great examples of that. At 12, you can take the high-line, which is relatively safe, but your angle keeps getting worse. Or you can go low, which brings the high grass into play. And while your angle improves dramatically (by 10x), you’re blind. It’s all a give and take. If you’re a high ball-flight player, I can imagine you taking the high line and hoping you can stop the ball coming into a slope that runs away. But if you’re ok with blindness, the lower line might be wise! And your feelings might change depending on what club you have in your hand and what your comfort levels are. I feel this was my internal monologue the entire round, which I’ve only encountered at a few modern courses (Ballyneal, St Patricks, Barnbougle) and a few old ones (TOC, Melbourne, etc)

- I feel the green complexes are some of the most interesting that I’ve encountered. Brian and Blake are clearly some of the best shapers in the world, and OB feels like an expression of what they believe interesting greens are. I feel they deviate drastically from a lot of new builds that feature at resort courses, where you likely can’t get away with such steep contouring because of pace of play. But they also feel different than some of the greens at Landmand. While you could describe them as bold, I feel they are interesting to putt, but equally, have a profound impact on approach shots, and recovery shots. I suppose you could say the same about other modern courses, but I’ve not seen a set of greens so complex and original on a modern build.

I’m only regurgitating what others have said, but that resonated with me. Is that groupthink? Perhaps. But you asked what was different, and I’ve tried my best to answer

Have you played a modern course that you think is a Doak 9 or 10? What about it made it unique/special?

[Tim Gallant]

Tim, thanks for the questions and continued engagement around this thread. I’m not on social media, so my ego-fueled dopamine hits come mostly on this website when I see a mention of Old Barnwell!

I’ll provide a separate response to your questions, but before I do that, I want to share a story about my first time playing at Tree Farm. We were still under construction at OB, with only 7 holes that had been completed when I had my first chance to experience The Tree Farm’s preview play in late April 2023. Though the course was still very much “in-process”, I was blown away by the routing and the scale of the place. When I say scale, I’m not just talking about “bigness” – there are moments at the Tree Farm that are remarkably intimate (my favorite among these is the 6^th green site) – I’m talking about the ability of the holes to accordion between the two extremes.
 
I left the property with a pit in my stomach. Though I never viewed our two clubs in the “us vs. them” terms generally presented in the very niche world of golf media, I definitely feared that Old Barnwell would never be able to match the achievements of Kye, Zac, and Tom. That previously mentioned ego of mine, for the first time in the entire development process, was selfishly concerned that the golf architecture nerds on this site and elsewhere would classify OB on a lower level than the other new course across town. I was jealous, and in some ways remain so!
 
What I couldn’t have known then was just how different the courses would be from one another, and as a complete amateur in the world of golf course development, I didn’t appreciate how two very different pieces of land would challenge the designer/builders to do very different things. Apples and oranges, and all that. Though I’m biased, I think it’s fair to say that both groups succeeded in producing exceptional golf courses. Having had the chance to play TTF five and a half times now, including once with Zac and 10 holes in miserably rainy conditions with Kye, I can unequivocally state that it’s one of my favorite golf courses. Each visit reveals something new, and while I find most of the ink is devoted to its finishing stretch of 13-18, I think you could make a more compelling argument that holes 4-11 contain the course’s pinnacle. But of course, that’s part of what it makes TTF so good, that two golf tragics can share a drink on the porch behind the wonderfully situated 18^th green and argue about what stretch of holes constitutes the best golf on the property with neither being wrong or right.

Nick - thank you very much for chiming in! I couldn't agree more re: TF, and I'd side with you that the run from 4-11 is pretty special. I think in my last post I also called out 6 greensite. So great.


I'll look forward to your responses on the OB questions. Thanks again. It's always fun (and unique) to get a client's POV on here.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Have you played a modern course that you think is a Doak 9 or 10? What about it made it unique/special?

Tim, the only modern course that I’ve played that I’d rate a Doak 9 is The Loop… but bear in mind I’ve only seen about ten courses combined from Renaissance, Hanse and C&C.

[Ira Fishman]

Have you played a modern course that you think is a Doak 9 or 10? What about it made it unique/special?

Tim, the only modern course that I’ve played that I’d rate a Doak 9 is The Loop… but bear in mind I’ve only seen about ten courses combined from Renaissance, Hanse and C&C.

At the risk of further diverting this very interesting thread: For C&C, Friar’s Head and Te Arai South are 9s; For Doak: Ballyneal and Cape Kidnappers are 9s. For both, Bandon Trails, Pac Dunes, SS Blue, and St. Andrews Beach are darn close to 9s. For the rest that I have played: SS Red and Te Rai North are 8s; Old Mac is a 7; Castle Stuart, SS Black, PH4, Kapalua Plantation, and Sheep Ranch are 6s. And I am trying to use my understanding of the definitions for the DS.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I guess I'll add my two cents. I played them in late April of last year. Tree Farm one day and OB the next. I liked both courses but came away enjoying OB more. Not entirely sure why. At TF you can run the ball onto the greens on 17 holes. It played very fast, had a great routing that used the terrain well, was in great condition, and had fun shots. It is not as demanding as OB. It is scruffier and has sand in play more than OB. (Scruffy isn't a bad word, just a descriptor)


I don't know if this is true, but I felt that OB had more grass to mow. My crooked shots still landed on grass. Although it was on a sandy site, it felt more manicured. I enjoyed the variety of holes, especially the par fours. No two were remotely alike. It was not possible to run the ball onto as many greens as TF.


I enjoyed both courses but for different reasons. AT TF It was fun to bounce some shots onto the greens. Flying them all the way to the hole is discouraged for players who don't hit it very high with spin. The greens were very firm. At OB I enjoyed figure out how best to use the contours of the greens. They are both fun, and while they share similar terrain, they are very different from each other. Kudos to both design teams.

[Zac Blair]

I'm not quite ready to give up on this thread. I'm surprised there isn't more discussion. While I've probably read more about both courses than all other new builds combined, I feel a lot of the conversation has centred on the vs. part, rather than what makes them individually unique/interesting/philosophically different.


In light of the recent threads about group think and discussion, it would be great to get some more input here, especially as the amazing individuals who helped build these courses are GCA members So:


@zac, was there something about TF that turned out different to how you wanted it to on the course (good or indifferent)? What are some of your favourite greens to putt on and why? What about favourite shots to play. As a PGA Tour pro, are there any shots that you think might make a very good player nervous, or ones that really suit your eye personally?


@Nick S, same first question about OB - anything that turned out different to how you thought it might based on your initial conversations with Brian and Blake? Anything that you learned through the design/build process that might not be obvious to us mere mortals? Also, now knowing what the Big course is like, is there something you'd like the third course to be/not be as a riff off the first?


@Brian S / Blake, you've talked about the Lido being inspirational, but how important was Llanerch / other consulting gigs in testing out some different ideas before bringing that to a new build like OB? Is there something that turned out well at OB that you'd like to try some more in the future? Every course is site specific, but is there an element or style at OB that you feel resonates with the type of golf you want to design/build moving forward?


Others, let's hear it. From 'this is the best course i've played' to 'I don't get it'. Let's get some good conversation going

Tim
I think there are several things that turned out differently than I initially envisioned years ago—maybe even right when we first got the property. But one of the things I’ll always be grateful for is how much I learned from Tom and especially Kye, since we were talking and working together every day. Kye was great at explaining why certain things wouldn’t work or would present challenges, whether it was related to routing, drainage, or construction.
If you had talked to me early on, I probably would have told you I envisioned more bunkering and a more dramatic style, but I had a conversation with Kye early in the process that changed my perspective. He made the point (and I probably won’t get this story exactly right) that it might actually be cool to zag while everyone else is zigging—in other words, to avoid getting caught up in the “arms race” of creating the next super-dramatic, eye-candy golf course that’s been so popular in recent years. That idea really resonated.
Another example was a conversation I had with Tom while walking the site—he pointed out that with the natural topography and the big ridges and valleys, water was going to move FAST through certain areas, making it unlikely that we’d be able to have a ton of sandy native areas. That was something that turned out different than I originally thought, but it makes sense given how the land functions.
If I’m being fully transparent, the Redan on 15 is probably the one thing I’d take a do-over on. I’m a huge Raynor/Macdonald fan and have seen Redans all over the world. I know which ones I love the most, so when Tom included in his field notes, "Sets up perfect for a Redan if you're into that sort of thing," it felt like a no-brainer. The goal when building it was to put a bit of a modern twist on it, making it so that good players couldn’t just avoid using the kicker—something I’ve seen happen a lot in other Redan-style holes. I also personally preferred the angle of the Redan at North Berwick over most Macdonald/Raynor versions, so we leaned toward that look. That said, my hesitation isn’t about how the hole turned out—it’s more about how much it gets compared to other people’s favorite versions of the Redan template. If I could go back, I think we might have been able to create a unique-to-The-Tree-Farm par 3 that still had some Redan characteristics without being put into a direct comparison with so many other great versions.
The only other thing I might tweak is adding one or two more drives that have some trouble in the middle of the fairway. Most of the fairways are pretty generous, but after seeing how the late addition of the center bunker on 7 transformed that drive and hole, I think it might have been interesting to introduce that element one or two more times throughout the course.
Favorite Greens to Putt On
I really enjoy putting on a lot of different greens out there. My goal was to rely mainly on tilt rather than overloading greens with internal contours, so I love putting on 3, 4, and 5 for that reason. That said, 8, 12, 16, and 18 all have pretty dramatic internal contours, and I really enjoy putting on those as well. Most of them (maybe except 18) give you a chance to use slopes to get the ball close if you miss on the wrong side.
Overall, I think there’s a lot of variety, and so much of it depends on where the hole is cut that day. I wanted the greens to always offer some kind of fun, and I think that carried through in the final design.
Favorite Shots to Play
Man, there are a lot.
I’ve always had an affinity for 4, and I think it’s just because it’s a really tough shot where you feel so rewarded when you pull it off. The back tee at 275+ yards makes hitting a good driver in there feel awesome.
I also really like the touchy wedge shot into 5—it seems straightforward, but you really have to think about where to land it, and it obviously has to be struck well to hold.
9 is a polarizing hole—some people love it, others think it’s too easy or too short—but I’ve always loved the shot into that green in two. Typically, it’s a long iron, and I just love watching (or hoping) to hit that shot perfectly and knock it on in two.
12 sticks out as well—that green is pretty diabolical for a long shot in, and you have to run something in rather than risk going over. Watching the ball use all the slopes and contours on the ground to (hopefully) end up where you want is one of my favorite things.
I mentioned 15 earlier, and Redans in general are always exciting because there’s almost nothing better than pulling off the perfect shot that uses the kicker.
But honestly, 18 might take the cake for my favorite shot at The Tree Farm. The way the ball moves on the ground, and hoping you get the right bounce/roll/distance to either get it on the green or feed it around to the back left corner when the pin is there, is so fun. Especially when there’s a crowd on the patio, first tee, and putting green watching.
Probably more shots than you were looking for, considering that’s about a third of the course, but I just really enjoy a lot of the stuff out there.
Shots That Make a Great Player Nervous
I think there are a lot of shots at The Tree Farm that can make great players nervous—at least, they make me nervous. A lot of them come from around the greens.
Something I feel doesn’t get mentioned enough about The Tree Farm is the range of short-game shots and recovery options you’re presented with. You can: Putt it, chip it straight at the hole, play away from the hole and use a slope to feed it back … I remember hearing Geoff Ogilvy talk about Pinehurst No. 2 once. He said everyone thinks it’s so diabolical around the greens (which it is), but he had a conversation with an older couple in a bar in town, and they actually preferred No. 2 over other courses because it let them putt the ball. They could basically wave the white flag, putt it onto the green, take their bogey, and move on. Meanwhile, better players might try to take on the shot, screw up, and make a worse score than the person who just accepted bogey.
I love that story, and while I’m not saying our greens are Pinehurst No. 2, I do think The Tree Farm offers that same kind of creativity and choice. If you want to take on the shot, you can—but if you miss, you bring double or worse into play.
For example, say you hit a nice shot to a back-left pin on 1, and it rolls just over the green. Now you’re short-sided. If you want to take it on and try to get a chip close, you risk making double. If you just accept that you messed up, you can putt it on the green, take your bogey, and move on.
That might be favorite thing about The Tree Farm—it makes you think about your decisions almost every hole. I also think there are some situations that don’t seem scary at first, but over time, they can create some serious scar tissue. Things like: Missing right on 8 off the tee or finding the bunker right of 17 green. Those aren’t immediately terrifying, but if you get caught in those spots a few times, they definitely start creeping into your mind.

[Justin Hill]

commenting regarding Tom's least favorite holes at TF...


"My least favorite hole was 17, which tells you I missed the green short, and that was that.  I was also not a big fan of 13, which was one of the holes Zac fell in love with early in the planning process . . . it's a cool idea for a hole, but it should have just stayed on top of the plateau instead of going down below, IMHO."
[/size][/color]
[/size]I've played it 4 times.  Each time with good golfers ranging from 10 to +5 HCs.  On 13 and 17, I have seen a safer strategy from a weaker player lead to a better score than a more bold strategy from a better player.  I think that's fun.  In hindsight this was due to the aggressive player failing to execute their strategy.  But also, their strategy might not have been that good- going at the flag off the tee (on 17 this only really applies if the pin is on the right half of the green).  I  like the little reveal you get after crossing the road (and canned Gatorade).  However, I can't make an argumenta that 13 is better now than it would have been if it stayed up there to the left.  I would love to know what that hole would have been like.[/color]

[/size]Regarding the thread in general, I think it's high praise considering most seem to prefer OB.  Also, let's not forget, ZB is one of us.  He likes golf and golf course architecture.  And he happens to be on the PGA Tour.  A very unique individual.  He was made fun of for saying he was going to build a course.  The road is never perfectly smooth and there were forks in the road that had to be navigated, but he did it.[/color]

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim, thanks for the questions and continued engagement around this thread. I’m not on social media, so my ego-fueled dopamine hits come mostly on this website when I see a mention of Old Barnwell!

I’ll provide a separate response to your questions, but before I do that, I want to share a story about my first time playing at Tree Farm. We were still under construction at OB, with only 7 holes that had been completed when I had my first chance to experience The Tree Farm’s preview play in late April 2023. Though the course was still very much “in-process”, I was blown away by the routing and the scale of the place. When I say scale, I’m not just talking about “bigness” – there are moments at the Tree Farm that are remarkably intimate (my favorite among these is the 6^th green site) – I’m talking about the ability of the holes to accordion between the two extremes.
 
I left the property with a pit in my stomach. Though I never viewed our two clubs in the “us vs. them” terms generally presented in the very niche world of golf media, I definitely feared that Old Barnwell would never be able to match the achievements of Kye, Zac, and Tom. That previously mentioned ego of mine, for the first time in the entire development process, was selfishly concerned that the golf architecture nerds on this site and elsewhere would classify OB on a lower level than the other new course across town. I was jealous, and in some ways remain so!
 
What I couldn’t have known then was just how different the courses would be from one another, and as a complete amateur in the world of golf course development, I didn’t appreciate how two very different pieces of land would challenge the designer/builders to do very different things. Apples and oranges, and all that. Though I’m biased, I think it’s fair to say that both groups succeeded in producing exceptional golf courses. Having had the chance to play TTF five and a half times now, including once with Zac and 10 holes in miserably rainy conditions with Kye, I can unequivocally state that it’s one of my favorite golf courses. Each visit reveals something new, and while I find most of the ink is devoted to its finishing stretch of 13-18, I think you could make a more compelling argument that holes 4-11 contain the course’s pinnacle. But of course, that’s part of what it makes TTF so good, that two golf tragics can share a drink on the porch behind the wonderfully situated 18^th green and argue about what stretch of holes constitutes the best golf on the property with neither being wrong or right.

Nick,


Very classy post. Happy to see that.


Tim Weiman

[Buck Wolter]

Justin I took the liberty of increasing the font size.

commenting regarding Tom's least favorite holes at TF...


"My least favorite hole was 17, which tells you I missed the green short, and that was that.  I was also not a big fan of 13, which was one of the holes Zac fell in love with early in the planning process . . . it's a cool idea for a hole, but it should have just stayed on top of the plateau instead of going down below, IMHO."

[/size]I've played it 4 times.  Each time with good golfers ranging from 10 to +5 HCs.  On 13 and 17, I have seen a safer strategy from a weaker player lead to a better score than a more bold strategy from a better player.  I think that's fun.  In hindsight this was due to the aggressive player failing to execute their strategy.  But also, their strategy might not have been that good- going at the flag off the tee (on 17 this only really applies if the pin is on the right half of the green).  I  like the little reveal you get after crossing the road (and canned Gatorade).  However, I can't make an argumenta that 13 is better now than it would have been if it stayed up there to the left.  I would love to know what that hole would have been like.[/color][/size]
[/size]Regarding the thread in general, I think it's high praise considering most seem to prefer OB.  Also, let's not forget, ZB is one of us.  He likes golf and golf course architecture.  And he happens to be on the PGA Tour.  A very unique individual.  He was made fun of for saying he was going to build a course.  The road is never perfectly smooth and there were forks in the road that had to be navigated, but he did it.[/color][/size][/color]

[Jason Topp]

Most of the greens start at the high tie-in point and rely on fill to soften the slopes into pinnable areas -- completely the opposite of my approach to building greens, but I'm fine with that.

Tom,

I promise I’m not trying to dominate the conversation. There’s just a lot of meat on the bone and that’s not been the case around here of late. I’m as guilty as anyone for that.

This part above leapt off the screen when I read it. You say this isn’t how you build greens but both architects have worked for you a great deal. Can you add to this?

Ben, before I got down to your post, I had already decided to pull this comment out to start a new thread about green building: I figured that if enough architects responded, it could be a real eye opener (and a rare new subject) for most on here… I’ll wait now to see if it naturally develops.


Suffice to say that I tend more to Tom’s approach, looking to cut from tie-in points where possible rather than fill. I think I recall Tom saying Bill Coore works more with fill also.

Could you guys show what you mean by this with pictures?   I think I know what you mean but I am not sure I do. 

[Dan Moore]

Try this.


Tree Farm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW2GFSE_-2Q


Old Barnwell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asGBALP6xXo

[jeffwarne]

Tom, you played an incredibly difficult set up the day we played. The first 6 holes were the hardest pin on each green. I think we played the vast majority of the holes with the toughest pin.

Also . . . why did they do that?  They knew we were all coming, right?  They must have a very wrong impression of my golf game to think making the course as hard as possible will impress me! 

LOL.
Club Pros hear that line pretty much every Ladies Day.
Sometimes that's just where the pins happened to go.


I will agree with Ben that there are a lot of tough up and downs at Old Barnwell. 1,2,3,4,6,9 13, come to mind as particularly challenging.


Epic thread.
Thanks for all the great contributions.

[Tags:]

Tags: