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Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -42
Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« on: January 26, 2025, 06:27:18 PM »
Gil Hanse opened a faux-Lido in Korea, then Tom Doak, et al., did a real one in Wisconsin. Now an El Borquerón course is in the works in South Carolina.

What other courses exist in history's mists, like Timber Point, from the Golden Ages, that might be considered enough of a draw, to be built by some empathetic, wealthy person?
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Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 16
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2025, 08:12:22 AM »
I don't think there are many of them that were good enough to justify the effort and expense, vs. hiring a good modern designer.


I even had my doubts about Lido, considering that it wasn't going to have the setting between Reynolds Channel and the Atlantic Ocean, which had to have added to the allure of the original.  But, Macdonald and company spent enough time on the detailed design of that course that its interest transcended the setting.


Also, Lido was created from scratch the first time, which made creating it from scratch possible.  Most courses rely in some part on things that can't be re-created . . . Timber Point wouldn't be Timber Point if that Gibraltar green wasn't sticking out into the bay.




Andrew Harvie

  • Total Karma: 42
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2025, 03:47:25 PM »
I'm actually a little surprised some Chinese billionaire hasn't constructed Augusta National to exact specifications on his own private compound... if EA Sports can, why not? I wonder what the legal hurdles are with that, but I would've thought there would be one ultrarich golfer who wouldn't care. I'm not a lawyer though, so I don't know—can you copyright holes?


I agree with Mr. Doak, though: places like Lido, which are constructed from the get-go and feature an impressive amount of detail (and documentation), can probably be re-created, but I doubt anything on hilly terrain can be replicated to the same degree Lido was/is. In Canada, I've always felt like Royal Montreal's South course at their second location fits that profile because it's uninspiring land and a majority of the features were built (even things like the creek and the railway going through the property could be re-created), but Canada doesn't have fun money like the US does, and we have issues getting new builds across the finish line in general, not just replicas or re-creations.


It wouldn't surprise me if there's a "lost" course popping up every-so-often, because between Lido and now 21 Club, they have gotten a lot of marketing attention and developers are always looking for unique angles to sell their product, but I would be surprised if they ended up being as significant as Lido is.
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Matt Schoolfield

  • Total Karma: -29
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2025, 04:05:11 PM »
I'm actually a little surprised some Chinese billionaire hasn't constructed Augusta National to exact specifications on his own private compound... if EA Sports can, why not? I wonder what the legal hurdles are with that, but I would've thought there would be one ultrarich golfer who wouldn't care. I'm not a lawyer though, so I don't know—can you copyright holes?
I mean, if I ever make Keizer money, the goal is to build Augusta, Pine Valley, and Cypress Point in the middle of nowhere and open the gates to anyone willing to play a copy. Finding the land would probably require using some algo to find topography and wind profile that suites them, which if I had that kind of money, I know enough people in the ML space who could probably get that done.

That you are allowed to copy golf holes is settled law: https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/942/1513/1884986/. You just can't use the names or trademarks. And even if RTJ2's proposed copyright for landscape architecture law were passed, it would likely not apply to an effective reproduction, but only to a near-exact reproduction. Even that would only be backdated to changed added since 1990, and there is ample material at this point to build a 1989 or earlier version of all of these courses.

Even if we had full copyright protections for golf holes, the vast majority of golden-age courses would have entered the public domain by now, which is now effectively anything published before 1930. One of the reasons something like landforms aren't subject to copyright is that the concept of "publishing" doesn't really apply.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2025, 04:12:07 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2025, 04:13:14 PM »
At a slight tangent perhaps but I’m sure there are a few lost courses here which would be good to reincarnate - https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/
The bones of some of them still exist on the ground.
Atb

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 5
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2025, 04:13:30 PM »
To drill down on this concept I would love to see MacKenzie’s 12th green at Sitwell Park recreated and have thought about having it as an extra hole to settle bets. I know that Tom Doak built a homage at Barnbougle but the original is truly a one off. Could it stimp any higher than 5/6 and be playable and or pinnable? For maintenance purposes, pace of play, and the propensity to crush one’s soul it’s likely never to return. I marvel at the photos and applaud MacKenzie for having the chutzpah to build it.




Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 16
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2025, 04:52:29 PM »
To drill down on this concept I would love to see MacKenzie’s 12th green at Sitwell Park recreated and have thought about having it as an extra hole to settle bets. I know that Tom Doak built a homage at Barnbougle but the original is truly a one off. Could it stimp any higher than 5/6 and be playable and or pinnable? For maintenance purposes, pace of play, and the propensity to crush one’s soul it’s likely never to return. I marvel at the photos and applaud MacKenzie for having the chutzpah to build it.


That's a good one but I'm not sure anyone knows the exact slopes and dimensions.  The green at Barnbougle just had the same sort of wildness so I talked about it as an homage, but the particulars are quite different.  With that one, a lot of the hole locations sit in bowls where you can putt past the hole and get it to come back, so it's not nearly as severe as people make it out to be.


I have never been to Sitwell Park but someone told me years ago they thought the green had just been abandoned and was sitting over to the side of golf now.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 16
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2025, 04:56:01 PM »
I'm actually a little surprised some Chinese billionaire hasn't constructed Augusta National to exact specifications on his own private compound...


Royal Gems Golf City, in Thailand, claims they replicated the back nine at Augusta National . . . but it appeared to be a replica in plan view, without the elevation changes  :P





Edward Glidewell

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2025, 06:09:59 PM »
I'm actually a little surprised some Chinese billionaire hasn't constructed Augusta National to exact specifications on his own private compound...


Royal Gems Golf City, in Thailand, claims they replicated the back nine at Augusta National . . . but it appeared to be a replica in plan view, without the elevation changes  :P


There's a replica course in Myrtle Beach that has Amen Corner -- "Amen Corner", that is. I've played there once a very long time ago and if I didn't know it was supposed to be a replica of Amen Corner, I'm not sure I could have identified it as one.

Colin Sheehan

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2025, 06:15:16 PM »
Tom,
I almost spit out my drink when I saw Royal Gems. Half the course is the back nine of Augusta!

The other nine:
17 at Sawgrass.
Church pews part of an Oakmont hole, I guess.
Is that the 18th at Doral? Or is it from Bay Hill?
And a Road looking green.
Perhaps some imitation Riviera in there?

Is there an actual list of the originals?

Simon Barrington

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2025, 06:16:39 PM »
I'm actually a little surprised some Chinese billionaire hasn't constructed Augusta National to exact specifications on his own private compound...
Royal Gems Golf City, in Thailand, claims they replicated the back nine at Augusta National . . . but it appeared to be a replica in plan view, without the elevation changes  :P
Which period Augusta National did they "plan" (intentional 2D reference)?


I'd suggest an attempt of The Lido project's quality for Mackenzie's original 19-Hole June 1932 ANGC design (pre Jones input) might excite many...as well as the unused Par 3 Course design...

Colin Sheehan

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2025, 06:29:12 PM »
Simon,
I meant to say something about that. It was constructed in 2009 and 2010 so one has to assume it is from that 2007/2008 era. I had hoped it could be a preserved version of the course pre-Tiger. Now that we think about it, I would love to play a replica of the original ANGC (1934). That should be on someone's radar in Asia. I would fly to Thailand for that.

Marty Bonnar

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2025, 06:43:00 PM »
Slight aside but lovely to see the great name of Harry Ward in this article last week:
https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/scottish-golf-club-to-reopen-historic-course/
If you’re still around here, Harry, please join in or start a new thread with all the news! Or maybe Carlton has some info…
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2025, 11:44:59 PM »

Gil Hanse opened a faux-Lido in Korea, then Tom Doak, et al., did a real one in Wisconsin. Now an El Borquerón course is in the works in South Carolina.


Ron--  Gil's faux -Lido is Ballyshear Links and it is in Thailand, not S Korea.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2025, 11:56:03 PM »
Regarding legal and technical impediments to doing an exact copy of a course:


--first, my sense is that if you have permission from the owner of the course to be copied, with enough $$ (and forgetting about copying "background visuals" and climate conditions,including wind), it would be very possible to do a copy that could be close to a duplicate of the original.  Of course, what owner would ever give that permission?


--IF you could somehow do the above without either permission or trespassing (could drones outfitted with radar of other sensing devices create a "map" of the surface" at night without being detected?), I would be surprised if the courts would uphold precedent given the changes in available technology.




Paul Rudovsky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2025, 12:11:12 AM »
One more thought on this thread.  Veterans of GCA will likely recall the famous (or infamous) MacWood Spoof Top 100.  It created a World Top 100 factiously "published" in 1939 (which would have been the earliest "top " listing by some 27 years).  It actually is an outstanding and interesting list.  There were 5 courses among the 101 (#100 combined Royal Worlington & Newmarket's 9 with the original 9 from Prairie Dunes) that were NLE's when this thread appeared on GCA:


Lido, NY
CC of Havana, Cuba
Tokyo Golf Club (original), Japan
Laskers, IL
Foulpointe, Madagascar


Of course Lido has been redone, and Foulpointe NEVER existed.  That leaves Laskers, Havana, and Original Tokyo.  Doubt anyone is old enough to have seen any of those before they disappeared, but that also was true before Lido was recreated by Peter Flory

Matt Schoolfield

  • Total Karma: -29
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2025, 04:22:28 AM »
Regarding legal and technical impediments to doing an exact copy of a course:

--first, my sense is that if you have permission from the owner of the course to be copied, with enough $$ (and forgetting about copying "background visuals" and climate conditions,including wind), it would be very possible to do a copy that could be close to a duplicate of the original.  Of course, what owner would ever give that permission?

--IF you could somehow do the above without either permission or trespassing (could drones outfitted with radar of other sensing devices create a "map" of the surface" at night without being detected?), I would be surprised if the courts would uphold precedent given the changes in available technology.

Again, golf course architecture is simply not covered by copyright, so it's not a matter of upholding precedent, it's just literally not illegal to copy most utilitarian things. E.g. clothing designs cannot be copyrighted, recipes cannot be copyrighted, games cannot be copyrighted. Lot's of things that people need to live life cannot be copyrighted. Golf course architecture is simply not covered by copyright, so you're allowed to copy it if you want to. It's important to remember that copyright was created as a way to increase the amount of artistic creation in the world, not as some sort of private property ownership, and the original term was just 14 years.

Copyright for the architecture for structures got passed back in 1990. I can't say I'm excited about that. There was a mild push to add golf course architecture to that law last year, but it hasn't gone anywhere, and like I said before, the copyrightable elements of golf course architecture would only be the artistic elements of the design, not the design itself, so you could still effectively copy the course, just not the artistic elements.

I know it's not going to make me many allies in this forum, but I've already articulated my concerns about extending copyright to earth-moving for golf courses, and I think it's probably a bad idea. Much like the fashion industry, most of the market for golf courses is about creating something new and interesting. Trademark is how the fashion industry handles copying to a large extent, and it works very well, and can work well for golf.

The biggest reason why I think it's unnecessary is that golf course creation is not scalable. Unlike the written word or film, copying golf courses quickly and en masse just can't happen. A publisher could copy tens of thousands of books in a day, but it still takes a construction company months (likely more time and more earth-moving than the original site), to copy a golf course. In a very practical sense, golf course design needs to be built around the land.

I'm not set in stone here, and if copycats started hurting the industry on a regular basis, my mind could be changed. However, if we were to embrace copyright for golf architecture, we'd potentially be giving up -- justifiably or not -- template culture. The threat of lawsuit, even if the artistic elements are changed, would probably have a chilling effect on architects from iterating on the same idea. With discussions of modern templates, I don't think it's unthinkable that we would bring a non-trivial amount of additional litigation to golf course development, and that's going to make a difficult industry even more difficult.

The vast majority of the courses that people want might want make copies of are already in the public domain. That those who inherited historic courses might not want to share them, well, that's just not how copyright is supposed to work. Even if those courses had been covered for the initial period, most golden age courses would have been free to copy decades ago. Copyright projection is there to protect the artist, not the art collector.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2025, 04:28:05 AM by Matt Schoolfield »

Mark Pearce

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2025, 04:37:49 AM »
Four English courses that might interest from the historical reports:


Holy Island - James Braid's wild minimalist 9-hole links in incredible dunescape on Lindisfarne
https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/england/north-east/northumberland/320-holy-island-golf-club-northumberland?highlight=WyJob2x5IiwiaXNsYW5kIiwiamFtZXMiLCJob2x5IGlzbGFuZCIsImhvbHkgaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIiwiaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIl0=
The dunes on Lindisfarne are wild, so this would have been an extraordinary course, with some of the best views in golf, to boot.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Simon Barrington

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2025, 05:53:40 AM »
Four English courses that might interest from the historical reports:


Holy Island - James Braid's wild minimalist 9-hole links in incredible dunescape on Lindisfarne
https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/england/north-east/northumberland/320-holy-island-golf-club-northumberland?highlight=WyJob2x5IiwiaXNsYW5kIiwiamFtZXMiLCJob2x5IGlzbGFuZCIsImhvbHkgaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIiwiaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIl0=
The dunes on Lindisfarne are wild, so this would have been an extraordinary course, with some of the best views in golf, to boot.
They are, I was lucky enough to explore the historic routing with The Links Diary chaps last May and it was a genuinely spiritual experience.
Architecturally it included James Braid's first back-to-back double green, an impressive punchbowl, a green with a "pronounced knob" (as per "Advanced Golf"), and on the first a squared green. Designed in 1907 the photographs, some of which are shown in the video below, show huge wild naturalised bunkering.
It's a SSSI and unlikely to get permission to return (I think Scott MacPherson tried for a while) but it would be truly incredible and rightly lauded if it was.


The Links Diary did a short video on it too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SQL1h9uO_U
« Last Edit: January 28, 2025, 06:00:08 AM by Simon Barrington »

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 16
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2025, 05:54:55 AM »
Four English courses that might interest from the historical reports:


Holy Island - James Braid's wild minimalist 9-hole links in incredible dunescape on Lindisfarne
https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/england/north-east/northumberland/320-holy-island-golf-club-northumberland?highlight=WyJob2x5IiwiaXNsYW5kIiwiamFtZXMiLCJob2x5IGlzbGFuZCIsImhvbHkgaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIiwiaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIl0=
The dunes on Lindisfarne are wild, so this would have been an extraordinary course, with some of the best views in golf, to boot.


Scott Macpherson was very interested in trying to resurrect that course at one point, but it's nearly all SSSI.


Again, though, the setting of it was probably the main appeal, and you can't duplicate that in Wisconsin [or Thailand].

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2025, 05:56:11 AM »
Four English courses that might interest from the historical reports:


Holy Island - James Braid's wild minimalist 9-hole links in incredible dunescape on Lindisfarne
https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/england/north-east/northumberland/320-holy-island-golf-club-northumberland?highlight=WyJob2x5IiwiaXNsYW5kIiwiamFtZXMiLCJob2x5IGlzbGFuZCIsImhvbHkgaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIiwiaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIl0=
The dunes on Lindisfarne are wild, so this would have been an extraordinary course, with some of the best views in golf, to boot.


I walked the area a few years ago and found a few holes quite quickly before having to retreat due to the tide. Nevermind being duplicated, if they can revive the original. It would be a cracker.


Ciao
« Last Edit: January 28, 2025, 06:00:31 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Simon Barrington

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2025, 07:23:35 AM »
Four English courses that might interest from the historical reports:
Holy Island - James Braid's wild minimalist 9-hole links in incredible dunescape on Lindisfarne
https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/england/north-east/northumberland/320-holy-island-golf-club-northumberland?highlight=WyJob2x5IiwiaXNsYW5kIiwiamFtZXMiLCJob2x5IGlzbGFuZCIsImhvbHkgaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIiwiaXNsYW5kIGphbWVzIl0=
The dunes on Lindisfarne are wild, so this would have been an extraordinary course, with some of the best views in golf, to boot.
Scott Macpherson was very interested in trying to resurrect that course at one point, but it's nearly all SSSI.
Again, though, the setting of it was probably the main appeal, and you can't duplicate that in Wisconsin [or Thailand].
I was focusing on "reborn" (in situ) potential courses.

Perhaps the essence of the thread maybe more about great lost (or unbuilt) designs, with sufficient associated plans and photography, that could be replicated elsewhere, so my apologies for in enthusiasm going a touch off-piste!

If you are ever in the area Tom it's really well worth the walk (but make sure you get the tides right, just like at Royal West Norfo!k)

Mark Pearce

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2025, 08:53:05 AM »
If you are ever in the area Tom it's really well worth the walk (but make sure you get the tides right, just like at Royal West Norfo!k)
There are worse places to be stuck than Lindisfarne.  I suspect that causeway is rather more dangerous than the one at RWN, though, there's a car or two lost to the ocean most years.....
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jonathan Mallard

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Is there a market for reborn, lost courses?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2025, 09:00:55 AM »
Why don't we pre-form a syndicate, and petition DJT to purchase and resurrect Overhills?


It has the distinct advantage of still being in the ground.