News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
“It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« on: January 25, 2025, 05:17:13 PM »
DL III says near the start of this piece that “It changed the game”. Bit like the guttie and then the Haskell?
25 years since its appearance would seem like a good opportunity for some debate.
See - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=35dqrZaDEFw
Thoughts?
Atb

Matt Schoolfield

  • Total Karma: -28
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2025, 06:18:22 PM »
The ball deserves attention, but to me the biggest change was back in 1979 with the hollow metal driver. Eliminating uniform density created the ability to hit the ball with enough speed to make reduction of spin an important tradeoff. The creation of the ProV1 just eliminated that tradeoff.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2025, 06:58:04 PM »
The ball deserves attention, but to me the biggest change was back in 1979 with the hollow metal driver. Eliminating uniform density created the ability to hit the ball with enough speed to make reduction of spin an important tradeoff. The creation of the ProV1 just eliminated that tradeoff.


Matt,


The "Pittsburgh Persimmon" Taylor Made driver didn't offer much of an advantage aside from durability.  The real change in drivers came 10+ years later with the Great Big Bertha ($499 then!) and later, the iterations of other drivers like the 975D and one year, J's Professional Weapon.


Those drivers were all smaller than 460cc, so when they introduced larger drivers with maximum COR...with a ball like the ProV1, the cow went out of the barn.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mike_Clayton

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2025, 07:38:28 PM »
The Pittsburg Persimmon driver was the worst driver I ever used. Hit it on the toe and instead of coming back like a wooden driver it kept going right. Same if you hit it in the heal - left to left.
And look back at them now. They look brutally difficult to hit - and mostly the guys who were being paid to used them were the ones who had them in the bag.
The 3 wood, on the other hand, was very good.


The Great Big Bertha was indeed, the great innovation - and when the administration should have immediately capped the size of the head.


Instead they were a mile behind and too late.

Matt Schoolfield

  • Total Karma: -28
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2025, 07:38:55 PM »
The "Pittsburgh Persimmon" Taylor Made driver didn't offer much of an advantage aside from durability.  The real change in drivers came 10+ years later with the Great Big Bertha ($499 then!) and later, the iterations of other drivers like the 975D and one year, J's Professional Weapon.

Those drivers were all smaller than 460cc, so when they introduced larger drivers with maximum COR...with a ball like the ProV1, the cow went out of the barn.
I'm not arguing that the metal driver broke the game in '79. I'm arguing that the change that broke the game was detaching the relationship between size, weight, strength, and density of drivers (and later most clubs). Previous to the metal driver, the larger you driver head was, the heavier it was. You could shift the center of mass down, but you couldn't increase the size of the sweet spot simply because you had uniform, horizontal density.

That this insight and its implications were not realized for a decade, to me, isn't important. We broke the game when we removed the self balancing relationship between size, strength, and weight when we remove the need to have club heads of effectively uniform density.

You're free to disagree, and I think that there is a non-trivial amount of shaft technology that has increased the distance as well, but my point stands. I think the ProV1's main benefit was simply removing the tradeoff that the previous generations of hollow drivers created, which I think was significantly less relevant to the era of wooden clubs, which already prioritize (or at least balanced) control over power.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2025, 07:41:06 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Sam Morrow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2025, 07:52:36 PM »
DL III says near the start of this piece that “It changed the game”. Bit like the guttie and then the Haskell?
25 years since its appearance would seem like a good opportunity for some debate.
See - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=35dqrZaDEFw
Thoughts?
Atb


People forget the Precept EV Extra Spin played most notably by Nick Price. That ball was a lot like the ProV before the ProV. It was such a good ball that it made a fat kid from the Houston burbs a highly regarded junior player.

Rob Marshall

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2025, 08:55:32 PM »
The Pittsburg Persimmon driver was the worst driver I ever used. Hit it on the toe and instead of coming back like a wooden driver it kept going right. Same if you hit it in the heal - left to left.
And look back at them now. They look brutally difficult to hit - and mostly the guys who were being paid to used them were the ones who had them in the bag.
The 3 wood, on the other hand, was very good.


The Great Big Bertha was indeed, the great innovation - and when the administration should have immediately capped the size of the head.


Instead they were a mile behind and too late.


I’m 62, started with a laminated driver. Had the Pittsburgh Persimmon and the Bertha. You are spot on Mark. The Bertha was a game changer.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -37
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 08:30:52 AM »
Tiger's Nike ball, which was a Bridgestone wrapped in a different blanket, was the predecessor to the Pro V1, correct? It didn't change the game, but it did compel everyone else to make a paradigm shift in their golf ball construction.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 05:38:42 PM »
Tiger's Nike ball, which was a Bridgestone wrapped in a different blanket, was the predecessor to the Pro V1, correct? It didn't change the game, but it did compel everyone else to make a paradigm shift in their golf ball construction.


Same with the Callaway Rule 35; like the Tour Accuracy, it was out slightly before the ProV1.  But all in 2000, I think?


Still it isn’t inaccurate to consider the ProV1 to be the ball that changed the game, simply because it was, well, a Titleist…
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:40:15 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Chris Hughes

  • Total Karma: -94
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 10:19:36 PM »
Tiger's Nike ball, which was a Bridgestone wrapped in a different blanket, was the predecessor to the Pro V1, correct? It didn't change the game, but it did compel everyone else to make a paradigm shift in their golf ball construction.


Same with the Callaway Rule 35; like the Tour Accuracy, it was out slightly before the ProV1.  But all in 2000, I think?


Still it isn’t inaccurate to consider the ProV1 to be the ball that changed the game, simply because it was, well, a Titleist…




Obviously there was collective leap forward in the ball-wars at the time but none of the others held a candle to the Pro-V1 -- it defined the category, and was in a class of its own.


Hey A.G., how's that big consultant driven renovation project going at your club?


« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:57:13 PM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Jim Sherma

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #10 on: Today at 01:18:19 PM »
I am saddened by the PGA of America's stance to fight the ball rollback. Saying that no one wants to become shorter is a shortsighted and probably incorrect thing to say. I would make the case however that no one wants to become relatively shorter is a true statement. If everyone could become proportionally shorter the scale of the game would be corrected and no one would be worse off. Being old enough to have grown up with the wound ball, and top-flite/pinnacle type surlyn of course, I am of the generation that never got shorter as I've aged. Still, I always thought that the Titleist Professional was close to the perfect ball. Fairly durable and felt so good. The 3-piece wound construction (core, rubber bands, and cover) also served as a natural governor to clubhead speed due to it over-compressing/deforming at very high clubhead speeds. Once the USGA/R&A gave in on spring effect club faces and the multilayered Pro-V1 that limited compression at high clubhead speeds (firmer inner mantle construction) while allowing for spin at lower club head speeds off of higher lofted clubs (soft core and urethane that stuck in the grooves), the scale and style of the game was changed for the worse in my opinion.