What was Sebonack’s rankings ceiling?

[Scott Warren]

I’ve been looking at a lot of Long Island aerials lately ahead of a trip I might be taking toward the middle of the year.

Today I was looking at the Southampton area and went down a Sebonack rabbit hole.

As I looked at the course and how incredibly close it is to both National and Shinnecock, I started wondering if purely by virtue of those two historic, storied and highly-ranked (top 5 world seems to be a consensus view) courses being right next door, like RIGHT next door, there was a ranking level that Sebonack was never going to be able to exceed regardless of the quality of the golf course?

Some might say “if it were good enough it could have been world #1”, but I’m more of the view that the situational, geographic and historic context plays into how a course is viewed relative to the courses that those factors lead to comparisons with.

If you’re inclined to agree with the latter, what’s your view on what that ceiling was for Sebonack?

(I have no idea where Sebonack is ranked within the USA or in the world, so this question is not predicated on the actual ranking it might have)

[Ian Andrew]

Some might say .... who is that?

I have the unique position of seeing the site early on and again during construction. I got to see Tom Fazio's routing plan. At least I think that's who did that plan. So that's even an alternative view of the site too.

I walked all 18 holes when only half were shaped. I liked parts and I really appreciated the efforts to save the dunes during tree removal. But I wasn't left salivating at what might come. Don't get me wrong, it was clearly going to be really good. But some areas of the property were less interesting than others. Plus I'm never going to be a pond fan. I think that was a requirement (storage). Lot's of restrictions to the clearing and I think there's a wetland limit. Not entirely sure, this was a long time ago.

The 17th was the highlight of the walk. A par three inset in a series of dunes and semi blind. Super cool hole. Just shaped. Really stood out above all else. Didn't survive the edit process. Some people don't like a semi blind hole I guess. That's a problem with having more than one vision influence a project. I'm pretty sure the 18th being a five was not a consensus choice either.

I saw it again when it was all done and grow-in was ongoing. I even played it the first year before any tinkering had begun. The old par five green was way better and a highlight. Also gone.

I guess what I'm saying is we judge outcomes. But we don't consider the circumstances with these questions. Outcomes are borne of more details than anyone will actually find out about (unless they ask). Let's just say I'm sensitive to that at the moment.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I have no idea, but I do recall a few discussions on Sebonack in the past. Is it possible that a number of compromises were made by both TD and JN during the construction, and that this has had an impact on its rating?


This discussion details some of reasons behind many of the design decisions that were made:
Sebonack, an interesting study

[Ronald Montesano]

Thanks, Ian.

I didn't know that Tom Fazio was involved. I remembered a story that JN had the gig, then someone put a bug in the owner's ear and said, you need to meet this guy, TD. After meeting TD, the owner was flummoxed. How do you fire JN? You don't, so you offer the two of them gobs of money to work together. They each learn something from the other, and then they unite in frustration when their closing par four becomes a par five, at the owner's direction. The ownere signs my paycheck, was the response of the builder/super.

That might be 75% correct and I'm not married to my first draft.

As to the question, I think that it could have been/be a top twenty in the USA.

[John Challenger]

I have been reading the 2006 thread on Sebonack. A battle. It seems like a disagreement over golden age and penal design decisions. Perhaps, the penal is more suited for competitions on golf simulators like we are seeing now in TGL. New golf courses that challenge the skills of the plus-handicap golfers can be created with much more variation and less expense on a screen than on the land.

[Kalen Braley]

I'd like to think that given Tom's track record with working on great sites, if he alone was calling the shots it would have been ranked higher.  Guessing he's got his own routing as well squirreled away somewhere in his office.

[Mark Pearce]

As I looked at the course and how incredibly close it is to both National and Shinnecock, I started wondering if purely by virtue of those two historic, storied and highly-ranked (top 5 world seems to be a consensus view) courses being right next door, like RIGHT next door, there was a ranking level that Sebonack was never going to be able to exceed regardless of the quality of the golf course?

Some might say “if it were good enough it could have been world #1”, but I’m more of the view that the situational, geographic and historic context plays into how a course is viewed relative to the courses that those factors lead to comparisons with.

If you’re inclined to agree with the latter, what’s your view on what that ceiling was for Sebonack?

I don't understand your premise.  Why would there be a ceiling?

[Scott Warren]

Mark,


I guess it boils down to, are there courses that by virtue of factors other than the quality of the 18 holes, will never rank above a certain level.


For Sebonack, with National and Shinnecock next door both ranked around 5th in the world and with their standing and history in the game, was there ever a chance that the course could be ranked higher than X, even if its 18 holes deserved to be?

[Chris Hughes]

A:   38

[Tommy Williamsen]

While on similar terrain, the three courses in question are very different from each other. The routings are brilliant, the green sites creative, and good shotmaking is essential. Yet, how you get to the greens is different. I found Sebonack to be the most difficult for me to score on. The greens have the most movement. Sebonack will consistently be ranked a little lower, and yes, I think the neighborhood it is in affects its ranking. How much, I don't know.

[JC Urbina]

Scott,


If I may chime in and coming from someone who spent a considerable amount of time pre-construction - during and post construction.  I feel I have an association with Sebonack like no other. 


I knew from day one that Sebonack would be un-justly compared to its famous neighbors and I once told Michael that if given a chance over time people would start to appreciate the true flavor of the routing and the golf itself. 


Sebonack would have to endure critics for years to come.  Knowing that my favorite golf course was just across the fence, The National Golf Links Of America and Shinnecock a short walk down the way would always get the love.  Each of those golf courses had more than a 100 years of history, both of them now having to put up with the new neighbor on the block. 


Time will let the dust settle, remember NGLA and Shinny went through changes over the years and each one  had to go through the ebs and flows like any golf course.


Give Sebonack Time,  it will mature nicely and someday will be in the same breath as its lofty neighbors.

[Scott Warren]

Thanks Tommy and Jim.

[Adam Lawrence]

I get what you mean, and you could be right, but the other possibility is that the company it keeps enhances the perception of Sebonack. Lots of golfers travel to the area for world elite golf, and surely it's not beyond the possibility that peoples' minds go 'If it's next to National and Shinny it must be great'?

[MCirba]

Fortunate to have had a day a few years back where we played Sebonack in the morning followed by NGLA in the afternoon.   I'm a big fan of Sebonack and our group certainly felt it didn't pale in comparison.


No creative artist likes to have decision-making control shared and I'm sure there are some things that could be improved or deleted from the perspective of each of the designers and teams responsible given their very different philosophical approaches.


But I also think the neighbor effect is there in terms of comparative tendencies favoring the established versus the upstart.   For instance, I'm not a fan of the artificial pond hole #8, but at the end of the day, is it really that much worse than #13 next door?   Is knowing the pond was created and not found make that much difference to the playability of each?   Let's not forget that CBM chose that spot because he thought the Eden at St. Andrews was flawed by allowing a low, running, or even duffed shot to reach the green so instead chose to penalize that shot on his version.   Today, I think we rather enjoy and applaud the fact that 11 at St. Andrews can be reached with a putter or a scuttled 3-iron if deemed necessary under high-wind conditions.   

[Mark Pearce]

I get what you mean, and you could be right, but the other possibility is that the company it keeps enhances the perception of Sebonack. Lots of golfers travel to the area for world elite golf, and surely it's not beyond the possibility that peoples' minds go 'If it's next to National and Shinny it must be great'?

Which might mean, if Scott's right, that it had a floor and a ceiling?

[Scott Warren]

I do think that’s a factor at times as well, Adam.

My instinct is that if the course is old, it’s more likely to be lifted by grand neighbours and if it’s new, the opposite is more likely to be true.

Obviously it’s not a science but I think if we looked at enough examples there’d be common factors at play.

I would say Prince’s is an example of grand neighbours lifting the perception of a place, or at the very least the regularity with which it gets talked about.

Mark P is probably right that these situational factors don’t just create ceilings but also floors.

I’m also interested in Jim’s suggestion that if a ceiling exists, there might be a period of time where that is the case but that in time the impact of that dissipates and a course, Sebonack in this case, ends up finding its natural level in the rankings.

[Adam Lawrence]

I just think that, as this is wholly impossible even to conceive of quantifying, the concept of a ceiling or a floor is a bit pointless really.

[JC Urbina]

Adam,


I agree that having a limit of where a golf course may rise to or fall from in the public opinion is not predictable.  You may also be  right in the fact that more people will get to see Sebonack because of the neighborhood.  I only saw Shinny back in 1986 because Karl Olson told to me to get out of his hair and  go over and check it out after I spent almost all day at NGLA.  He also told me to go see Bobby Ranum's course since I was there.  So, I was exposed to three top golf courses when I only went to see ONE.  When the day was done I headed back to NJ to finish my work on a Dye golf course I was working on, knowing that my exploration was  complete!  And for that matter everywhere I went while working for the Dye's I would go see another course, imagine being sent to see Carmel Valley Ranch on a Dye assignment and having the chance to see Pebble Beach and Cypress Point




Scott, in my honest opinion Sebonack will enjoy the comforts of being next to the National and young writers will begin to soften their stance on the newness of the courses and only the old guard will put-up any resistance to its inclusion to the lofty ness off the  other layouts next door.   Jacks name will carry with a certain section of writers both for his playing abilities and golf design qualities.  I have read countless articles dating back to the Golden Age of designs while studying for my work on both the East and West coast and writers were as easily influenced on who was there as much as what was actually done. 


Reading hundreds of articles dating back to 1928 on the evolution of Pasatimepo, one thing that continues to ring true was Marion Hollins finding the land, ( Michael) Bobby Jones and Glenna Colette playing on opening day and how much they enjoyed the spirit of the golf course.  So, some guy named Mackenzie with help from his sidekick Hunter crafting a golf course that only in recent times has become one of his best! 
[/size]
Yes, I know Mackenzie got a design commission from his work at Pasatimepo but only local papers covered the story on Pasa. [/font]


The rankings as you know is dependent on who actually see's the golf course,  so the ceiling becomes debatable. [/font]

[PThomas]

None I think


I thought of Tara Iti reading this thread.....that course is SO good - a friend who's seen even more courses than me thinks it is the BEST modern course - that I think it proves that even a new course can be even better than almost any course

[JC Urbina]

Scott,


I also forgot to add one thing.


When you are regarded by the certain select few who adore you, you will always succeed.  The new era of Blogs- Websites- Influencers may change the status of many of the new golf courses across the U.S. 


What do you think will happen to the new batch of golf courses in the Florida area?  I have spent the last year down in Florida and have seen property and new golf courses been built at a rapid pace.


Will they get blessed and achieve a new level of attainment. a new ceiling height so to speak?

[Daryl David]

None I think


I thought of Tara Iti reading this thread.....that course is SO good - a friend who's seen even more courses than me thinks it is the BEST modern course - that I think it proves that even a new course can be even better than almost any course

It’s definitely that good. So glad I got to play it before it got so famous. Hard to get on now!