Virtual Architecture of TGL Courses

[Jonathan Mallard]

I didn't see another thread on this topic, and didn't feel it was appropriate to add to the thread about the roof collapsing, so here we go.


The Video from Fore Play golf gives a glimpse to the workings of this new league. There is a rotating greensite with bunkers that is incorporated into every hole. Additionally, the undulations of the green and the surrounds are modified for each hole. They play approach shots off of natural grass, and there is a box for fairway bunker shots.
 
The architecture element will seemingly be there. If you watch to about 8:00 in the video, you'll see what clearly resembles a channel hole. However, this one is a 722 yard par 5 with a 288 yard carry to the island! Needless to say, given the character of the virtual terrain depicted, this hole would be impossible to build in reality!


This could be more interesting than I thought it was going to be!


Note: The folks in the video may not be everyone's cup of tea. It is the barstool crowd, and there is the occasional explicative uttered.


It's also the only "action preview" of the league I've seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEMU-HzSoEE

[Matt_Cohn]

I've been watching the hole previews on Instagram. The ones that look more like "real" golf holes seem pretty mediocre given the lack of a single constraint of any type from tee to green—one has houses in the background, why?!— but maybe they'll play better than I think. The ones that look like they came from the World's Toughest Golf Holes calendars look way more crazy and interesting to me.

[Tom_Doak]

I will probably never watch this, but I bet I could come up with some cool ideas for golf holes.


We spoke about "urban golf" the other day . . . why don't they make a hole that plays down Wall Street, complete with buildings etc?  Or playing a hole through Central Park, with all of the trees in the way?  Or trying to play INTO Yankee Stadium from the outside?

[Ronald Montesano]

I nominate the Pamplona hole. I saw the departure from encierro (where the bulls are ceremonially kept prior to release) and walked the entire route to the point of encierro in the plaza de toros, and what struck me most, was how uphill the entire route was. Add in the winding nature and the cobblestone/brick camino, and it's a challenge for sober athletes, much less drunken tourists. It would be one hell of a par twelve.

[Matt_Cohn]

This is an example of one where I was happy to see them doing some crazy stuff. Like why not, there are literally no restrictions!:
[width=1000]







Some of the more normal golf holes, like this one (with the aforementioned background homes), don't seem especially interesting:

[/width]


All of the holes are here, with a bunch of pictures of each: https://tglgolf.com/holes

[Simon Barrington]

I will probably never watch this, but I bet I could come up with some cool ideas for golf holes.

We spoke about "urban golf" the other day . . . why don't they make a hole that plays down Wall Street, complete with buildings etc?  Or playing a hole through Central Park, with all of the trees in the way?  Or trying to play INTO Yankee Stadium from the outside?

That would be fun and fit the gamification angle

My guess is they didn't want to do this in case some YouTuber to replicated these in real life (potentially causing havoc/damage) as we saw a while back in St Andrews when Street (over houses) shots to 18th Green were posted!


Another question may be -  Could/should Architects utilise these type of venues to "road-test" their future physical designs by dropping in a full digital design (obviously not for "design & build" on the ground) to test out how the course may (approximately) play prior to even breaking ground?


Lastly, on another strand, could your team Tom drop in the digital version of The Lido onto this venue and have them play it, that would be fascinating...

[Tom_Doak]

Simon:  The thing about pro golfers is, you know exactly what they’re going to do.  Rory McIlroy is going to carry his driver 312 yards and it doesn’t matter if there is a virtual lava river 300 yards wide, as long as it doesn’t eat into the fairway while his ball is in the air.  The TGL is just a driving range with graphics.


So I don’t need to see that for The Lido.  The only thing I need to see in terms of play-testing is how firm it’s going to be and what will happen to a shot coming in from a tough angle, into the wind, or downwind.  But I’m guessing that’s exactly where the TGL sim is lacking. And even if they could get that part right, you could only guess beforehand at how firm a course might get, so it’s not of too much value for pre-testing.


Now, average golfers are an entirely different story.  They’re inconsistent, and their ball flight is way different.  They’re the ones we really have to think about, and they could be anywhere for their approach shot.


But I guess I don’t need to worry about them because Mark F assures me my design intent is only about guys who carry bunkers at 240 

[Simon Barrington]

Simon:  The thing about pro golfers is, you know exactly what they’re going to do.  Rory McIlroy is going to carry his driver 312 yards and it doesn’t matter if there is a virtual lava river 300 yards wide, as long as it doesn’t eat into the fairway while his ball is in the air.  The TGL is just a driving range with graphics.


So I don’t need to see that for The Lido.  The only thing I need to see in terms of play-testing is how firm it’s going to be and what will happen to a shot coming in from a tough angle, into the wind, or downwind.  But I’m guessing that’s exactly where the TGL sim is lacking. And even if they could get that part right, you could only guess beforehand at how firm a course might get, so it’s not of too much value for pre-testing.


Now, average golfers are an entirely different story.  They’re inconsistent, and their ball flight is way different.  They’re the ones we really have to think about, and they could be anywhere for their approach shot.


But I guess I don’t need to worry about them because Mark F assures me my design intent is only about guys who carry bunkers at 240 

Thanks Tom

All very fair points, and thanks for engaging with some random morning coffee induced thoughts here.

I think what I was thinking of is how designers of cars use wind tunnels, and you then hit the nail on the head...that's the bit that's missing in the TGL (and all SIM's)...next level is to put one of these into a Wind Tunnel!

Then perhaps adding a variable softness/bounce surface...we saw how a design that requires firmness for interest and score protection (if anyone really cares about what they score) performs at the weekend at Kapula {Shocked Face Emoji}

Much like The Open needs a bit of wind to challenge the best, we clearly also need firmness.

Or maybe we just; model with plasticine, build these things organically, by skilled shapers with imagination, graze them with Sheep, water them only enough to keep the grass from dying, force them to play with a half set, along the ground, and we can get back to the soul of the game! {Winking Face Emoji}

[Ben Hollerbach]

On some of the videos with the architects describing the holes it seemed like a few of them were not thinking of these holes in the confines of a digital visual space and I am concerned the elements that would make these holes interesting and exciting in real life will in actuality make them rather boring for the TGL format.

It seems the bolder, more golden tee-esque, designs will make for the most interesting play. Which makes me wonder, Why did TGL not crowd source off the wall designs from the public and will the TGL holes be made available for play at home?

[Alex_Hunter]

Most of the holes by Piza Golf(?) are whacky beyond belief. Clearly aimed at sim golf and designs common of holes you would find in The Golf Club course creator.


The technology behind this does look interesting and I wonder how it might translate to you and I in the future. Obviously sim golf is very applicable and popular today, but this is on a completely different scale with many more features.


I'll be watching the first game tomorrow night as it's easily accessible (good start), but I have my doubts about its longevity unless there is some good banter from the pro's.

[Matthew Rose]

I had some of those old calendars as a kid.... some of these look straight outta that playbook.

It can be hard to keep the video game / sim player entertained when they are used to a world that has no practical limitations - they might see something like the "Flex" or "Temple" and get easily bored by subtlety.

I've grown up designing "courses" with all kinds of software and shared them with others.... eventually I got employment out of it, which is amazing to me. One of the things I learned early on is that there is definitely a market for the more outrageous styles - I remember seeing user made courses that were set in outer space, just as one example.

Of course, the actual design of the course often became secondary; you might download one based on some amazing visuals, but the actual course would be boring to play, because you were playing something built solely by a graphic artist who didn't really play golf.

Even in my line of work now, most of my peers tend to gravitate more towards the Fazio aesthetic. One of my colleagues thinks Pete Dye courses are ugly.

[Kalen Braley]

I would 2nd Matthew's comment above, the more out of the box in general the better.

For example that 1st pic Matt Cohn posted is creative with the island volcano motif, but the hole is far too symmetrical with fairway left, fairway right, and tiny fairway down the middle with bunkers right and left guarding the green.

The online game I play does a good job at giving 2-3 different routes to the hole, all different from each other with various risk and reward options.  Hazards are set at diagonals at varying distances off the tee, so one option may be doable in a one wind and completely out of reach in a different one.  Virtual courses are bound by nothing, let the imagination run where asymmetry is your friend.

P.S.  That video could of been interesting as they describe the game play and setup...but those 3 jack wagons just killed it.

[Matthew Rose]

I think the amateur designer would probably gravitate towards symmetry; I don't know if they think a whole lot about angles as strategy. The natural tendency might be "well if I put a hazard on the left I should probably put one on the right".

But when you watch golf on TV you don't really see those things either; you just see guys firing at flags everywhere. Simulator golf is going to be more aerial by nature just because real-life ground physics are too unpredictable in my mind to be fully replicated.

I watched the video with the sound muted