Was Macdonald's Shinnecock any good?

[John Connolly]

I have enjoyed some recent re-reading of Shinnecock threads here. I've been looking for good routings - photographs, drawings, or otherwise - of Macdonald's routing which was in the ground only for a few decades before the course was reworked by Flynn and Toomey. George Bahto's bio on CBM has a drawing and I found a 1930 aerial online. It was a very different golf course than what is there today.


Was it any good? Was it highly regarded? Or is everyone happier Flynn came to town?

[Tom_Doak]

Was it any good? Was it highly regarded? Or is everyone happier Flynn came to town?

I have never heard anyone say they thought Macdonald's version of Shinnecock was great.  It didn't get a lot of coverage in the golf magazines of the 20s, which were fully enamored with its next-door neighbor, and with Lido.


So I think everyone is happier than Flynn came to town.

[Will Lozier]

John,


Can you share the aerial you found?


Cheers

[John Connolly]

Not sure how to post a pic. Will study how to do that. I can send it to you privately. What is intriguing about this shot is that it simultaneously has Flynn's developing course in the northeast portion of the property, wtih Macdonald's still existing at the south end running along the railway line.

[John Connolly]

Will,


Here is the link I used to find it.

https://www.suffolkcountyny.gov/portals/0/formsdocs/planning/Cartography/1930/sc193011f1WEB.pdf

[Nigel Islam]

The land acquired for the Flynn course seems quite good to me. Probably a lot better than any on the CB course.

[Colin Sheehan]

It definitely didn't suck, in fact, the design was probably great. The ground had sandy soil with links turf and some decent elevations, and done on the heels of Lido. Shinnecock's current and excellent 7th and 9th holes would have been an indication. (Those are the two I know of...any others?) Alas, the CBM course was not long for this world. Bret, please correct me, but I think it only existed from about 1916 to 1930 with the WWI years cutting into its already short lifespan.

Yes, they inherited the original 1891 course which had to come with limitations. Probably what happened, after the war, its proximity to Route 27 became a liability. It likely became untenable to have a considerable portion of the holes in the way or adjacent to a new and increasingly-busy road, and they had wonderful ground away from 27 in which to expand. By 1930, Raynor was dead and Macdonald had been retired for about five years and he must not have been interested in revising his own work, even if he lived down the street for much of the year. Perhaps he signed off on the design. It's a shame this was a few years after Scotland's Gift, otherwise we may have had some commentary on it. CBM may also have seen the benefit of having a course contrast with NGLA (and Southampton GC) and not have 54 contiguous holes in his style.

Here's the original scorecard (with terrific holes names!).
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Txb7JyGiNJztUM8S6

I don't think it is a reach to speculate, if it was completely in tact today, that it might be a peer to (and maybe ranked as high as) Garden City or Chicago Golf. Like its clubhouse, it was definitely better than 98% or 99% of new courses built since WWII--and maybe everything from the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s!

[MCirba]

Fascinating thread.   You can definitely see a Biarritz in that old aerial.


Are any of the practice greens over on the right as you come in on the driveway remnants of the CBM course?

[Adam_Messix]

If memory serves, when Flynn designed the course that is at Shinnecock today, the plan was to have 27 holes with 9 holes of the MacDonald routing remaining.  This included some of the holes across Highway 27 from the clubhouse.  Being it was the beginning of the Great Depression, the club ran out of money and only finished the 18 holes that are in play today. 


The story of how the Flynn course came to be and Lucien Tyng's role is fascinating and was discussed in the draft of Bob Goddard's The Story of Shinnecock Hills book that was never published. 




Hopefully a lurker or two will read this and fill in any plot holes. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Here is the aerial in John's link, as well as a later 1938 image showing the completed Flynn course.

[Sven Nilsen]

It is a bit of a mystery to me why so little was written about CBM's version of the course. 

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is a clearer version of the Shinnecock/National Golf Links 1930 aerial:

Suffolk County Economic Planning and Development., Aerial Photograph Collection, 1930.


A cropped version of Shinnecock Hills 1930, to show more detail:

Suffolk County Economic Planning and Development., Aerial Photograph Collection, 1930.


The write-ups from Metairie suggest that Shinnecock Hills was one of the courses Joe Bartholomew saw on his tour of model holes and courses in Long Island/NY before he built Metairie Country Club to Raynor’s plans.


An article from 1919 suggests no effort was made to have the course compare with it's neighbor.
The Sun., July 22, 1919:




I have never seen a contemporaneous routing or layout of the course.

[MCirba]

Circumstantial evidence might suggest that Macdonald didn't want serious competition with his beloved NGLA next door.   

[Tom_Doak]

Circumstantial evidence might suggest that Macdonald didn't want serious competition with his beloved NGLA next door.

Indeed.  And the evidence is also that nobody thought the course had that sort of potential, until Flynn came along.

[Bret Lawrence]

Including a labeled aerial to show the Macdonald routing. (According to the scorecard Colin Sheehan provided earlier):

Suffolk County Department of Economic Planning and Development. Aerial Photograph Collection, 1930.

The four holes after the Biarritz were remnants from the earlier course.  The Eden green still exists (in some form) in the driving range.

[Craig Disher]

There is a very nice description of the course in Wexler's Missing Links. To say that Flynn's replacement was an improvement is an understatement.

[John Connolly]

Given CBM's famously large ego, you'd have to wonder if he was bothered that his Shinnecock was torn asunder by the nature faker from Philadelphia. When he advocated for Chicago Golf's redo by his protege, he wasn't shy about telling the club it had let his original course slip. Did he also put it in on Shinneock? Maybe he knew urban (suburban?) planning and its incoming roadway was to "blame" for the overhaul.

[Steven Wade]

While I am interested in the CBM version of Shinnecock, I'm more enamored by the 1890s version that preceded it, and what led to the abandonment of features like the Bastian Bunker. Obviously that looks to have been insanely penal (as do some other design features of Shinnecock 1.0), but were that still to exist it'd absolutely be a trademark of the course and they'd sell ball markers with its likeness on it in the pro shop.


Some of these Victorian era features that never really caught on are fascinating to me.

[Cal Seifert]

While I am interested in the CBM version of Shinnecock, I'm more enamored by the 1890s version that preceded it, and what led to the abandonment of features like the Bastian Bunker. Obviously that looks to have been insanely penal (as do some other design features of Shinnecock 1.0), but were that still exist it'd absolutely be a trademark of the course and they'd sell ball markers with its likeness on it in the pro shop.


Some of these Victorian era features that never really caught on are fascinating to me.

Are there any photos of the ‘bastian bunker’?

[Steven Wade]

While I am interested in the CBM version of Shinnecock, I'm more enamored by the 1890s version that preceded it, and what led to the abandonment of features like the Bastian Bunker. Obviously that looks to have been insanely penal (as do some other design features of Shinnecock 1.0), but were that still exist it'd absolutely be a trademark of the course and they'd sell ball markers with its likeness on it in the pro shop.


Some of these Victorian era features that never really caught on are fascinating to me.

Are there any photos of the ‘bastian bunker’?

It seems that I've misspelled it, but this is one of the two photos I've seen of it, both from Wayne Morrison's Flynn writings.

[John Connolly]

Steve,


Not sure if the additonal photo of Bastion Bunker you reference is the one found at this Harper's Weekly link or not. Some other interesting shots including Hell Bunker, The Crater, Willie Dunn's shop, and early Shinnecock caddies.


https://www.abebooks.com/first-edition/PRINT-Amateur-Sport-Column-Harpers-Weekly/5811225583/bd#&gid=1&pid=1

[Steven Wade]

Steve,


Not sure if the additonal photo of Bastion Bunker you reference is the one found at this Harper's Weekly link or not. Some other interesting shots including Hell Bunker, The Crater, Willie Dunn's shop, and early Shinnecock caddies.


https://www.abebooks.com/first-edition/PRINT-Amateur-Sport-Column-Harpers-Weekly/5811225583/bd#&gid=1&pid=1

Yes, that is the additional shot that I have of the Bastion. Some really unique features out there that I might romanticize just because they are such a departure from the modern norm.

[Cal Seifert]

Do we know where the bastion bunker was located, and if it was the CBM version of the course that removed it?


I agree with Steven, that bunker would be akin to Oakmonts church pews had it survived. Think about the $$$ from custom headcovers!

[Greg Hohman]

While I am interested in the CBM version of Shinnecock, I'm more enamored by the 1890s version that preceded it, and what led to the abandonment of features like the Bastian Bunker. Obviously that looks to have been insanely penal (as do some other design features of Shinnecock 1.0), but were that still exist it'd absolutely be a trademark of the course and they'd sell ball markers with its likeness on it in the pro shop.


Some of these Victorian era features that never really caught on are fascinating to me.

Steven, a summer art school was there in the 1890s. The school’s paintings might be archived. The course might make appearances as subject or in the background.

[Colin Sheehan]

Greg,
Here's one such image from 1895 by William Merritt Chase, titled "Shinnecock Hills," hanging in the Yale Art Gallery. Unfortunately, no golf in view.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/Yuzo6p82rAAzDyh6A


Looks like it could easily be the back nine of the Flynn routing.