https://womenfriendlygolfcourse.com/

[Jim Hoak]

Careful!!  You're getting very close to being condescending.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I suspect the few (maybe fewer than 5?) women in this discussion group are all very accomplished golfers and can easily play from most any tee. So it's probably not a question of gender, but more one of athletic ability. And that includes kids and seniors.

If courses were built according to the athletic ability of the average male member, then I suspect those courses would be fine for female members as well. All we ever needed was two tees, which allowed the course architect to design without compromises.

[Ben Malach]

I have been staying out of this thread because I don't know if it's my place or not.


All of this seems like a marketing play by Nickolas. Which isn't bad but it's also a tough position to take in an era where we have two legitimate female architects getting work on their own name.


I also think it's very tough and should be avoided whenever possible the phenomenon of men speaking for women. To that point I have been conducting for the past month a blind survey with the intent of co authoring a piece about the ideal women's golf club.


Some of the answers were interesting as yes they talked about distance. Like a majority of this thread has been about, but they also talked about how heights of cut in the rough were almost more of a penalty than a bunker. Their concerns with bunkers were about depth as bunkers built too deeply reduced their ability to comfortably extract the ball in a single stroke.


There were hundreds more nuances than just shorter holes. I am excited to share them once me and my co-author are done reading the responses.


The 1 concern of most involved was being viewed as equals as Matt brought up.in his post. They were not going to ban men from this club and men could be voting members if sponsored by a founding female member. This is not the case at most clubs where, women regardless of their knowledge or ability will be ghettoized as simply spouses or add ons.


This is a very problematic attitude especially in an era where golfs #1 growth market is young women.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why I Gave Up Golf: One Woman's Story About Male-Dominated Club Life: In conversation with a former single-figure female golfer, Alison Root finds out why she left the sport she loved

A quote from the article: “At the time, it was generally just her and a couple of other high handicappers playing at the weekend, and as a single-figure golfer, it was frustrating for her when she had to watch several shots being played before reaching her drive.”

As a single-figure golfer myself living in Florida, if I had that attitude, I’d quit the game too. It’s the opposite of frustrating watching people who didn’t live as casual of a life as yourself learn to love the game.

[Ulrich Mayring]

This article wowed me as well. I have never seen anything like that in my life, so perhaps this is an issue restricted to some very specific types of clubs or parts of the world.


But you picked a great passage to quote. The woman was above playing with weaker golfers, in fact she let the endeavours of the weaker golfers influence her own enjoyment of the game - instead of using her natural authority as a better player to encourage them and make them feel welcome. So this woman was not leading by example, maybe the men were not welcoming her, because they also needed more shots to reach the green...

[Kalen Braley]

This article wowed me as well. I have never seen anything like that in my life, so perhaps this is an issue restricted to some very specific types of clubs or parts of the world.

But you picked a great passage to quote. The woman was above playing with weaker golfers, in fact she let the endeavours of the weaker golfers influence her own enjoyment of the game - instead of using her natural authority as a better player to encourage them and make them feel welcome. So this woman was not leading by example, maybe the men were not welcoming her, because they also needed more shots to reach the green...

Ulrich,

Its sad to see, as with near everywhere else in society...yet another double standard.

As a high capper, mostly single-figure golfer myself, I've been paired with more accomplished golfers that I can count who espoused similar attitudes towards me, and in some cases was even refused to play in their group, except they were all men. But a woman does it and she's called to the carpet as a proverbial bitch. Would you have same advice for them?

[Wayne_Kozun]

I am all for shorter courses. But to me a short course is when the back tees are probably 5000ish yards. I have never been keen on trying to stretch courses from 4500 to 7000 yards. The mega tee concept generally doesn’t work well. Bottom line, if you want courses for women and others who enjoy short courses then the focus needs to be on that demographic. Don’t try to please all. Frankly, I am surprised more short courses haven’t been built. I would much rather see these built than par 3 courses.

I am wondering if the issue is that golf courses don't work economically in areas where real estate is relatively expensive. Sure you need less land, but other expenses will still be similar regardless of the size of the course.

Kind of like how you can't build low end housing in a lot of places these days given the cost of land, zoning and construction.

[Simon Barrington]

I don’t know. Women’s golf should not be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Plenty of women, exercising the same techniques that  we expect of men, can play 6,000 yard courses. Add more forward tees, if you want, but I’m not going to condescend women who equally aspire to improving their game.

While this is only the case for a very small percentage of women, it is still a valid comment in that they should all have the choice to play a 6000+ yard course if they are so minded.

Unfortunately England Golf is recommending Clubs not (or worse effictively refusing) to rank Mens Rear Competition Tees for Women under the WHS.

This is short sited, and potentially exclusionary to the longest women (they would be on thin ice if challenged on this).

The key on having egalitarian "Gender Neutral" tees (as they are often called in the UK) is that they all can be used by all regardless of gender.


But, the other "elephant in the room" is too many golfers (male or female) are playing too far back and slowing down play.

Thus a simple access for all to all tees policy needs to have a caveat, in that if a player cannot complete a round in a reasonable time (to be determined by each club as they wish) then they must play forward.

I think Sean A mentioned the 36x 5-Iron yardage as a ready measure for which tees to play from, I think this is the single best idea I have heard of yet.

All players should be encouraged to play from the set of tees that most closely match that aggregate distance (regardless of gender)

Perhaps they could all have their 5-iron distance measured by the Pro with a launch monitor into a Sim or Net and then they are permissioned to play all tees shorter than the aggregate 36x their measured 5-iron distance, but not tees that are longer (unless prescribed in a Club Competition/Match)...

[Simon Barrington]

Is “single-figure” golfer a common term?

It is in the UK, and refers to the golfer's Handicap (now Index) being below 10

Possibly the use of the word "figure" might be misinterpreted by some...so perhaps "digit" may be more appropriate to avoid such misunderstanding?

[Simon Barrington]

This is a good question and one I'm going to find out in the New Year. Regardless of what it is, golf architecture/agronomy is an overwhelmingly male-dominated field and I would love to see an influx of passionate women come to the DG, especially those in the industry like Christine Fraser, who I suspect would have a decent amount to say about this topic specifically, and Angela Moser (part of the discussion group), who is a very talented individual with a ton of creativity to unleash as evident by Pinehurst 10!

For those who wish to know more about both of these talented women, they have both recently featured on various podcasts and both of these were fascinating discussions:

Christine Fraser on the "Top 100 Clubhouse Podcast" - https://open.spotify.com/episode/0yWsE64NMRZa6uK2b4FR44?si=1wL6pZELSDyxAzcNEYs_4Q


Angela Moser on the "Firm & Fast Podcast" - https://open.spotify.com/episode/5smp9sQcBnQi7lwhc2arev?si=sikCkzigSSevEtFERfk3Uw

[Tim Martin]

Is “single-figure” golfer a common term?

It is in the UK, and refers to the golfer's Handicap (now Index) being below 10


Possibly the use of the word "figure" might be misinterpreted by some...so perhaps "digit" may be more appropriate to aoid such misunderstanding?

I’ve often heard the term “low marker” from our euro friends on the board.

[Matt Schoolfield]

As a single-figure golfer myself living in Florida, if I had that attitude, I’d quit the game too. It’s the opposite of frustrating watching people who didn’t live as casual of a life as yourself learn to love the game.

The woman was above playing with weaker golfers, in fact she let the endeavours of the weaker golfers influence her own enjoyment of the game - instead of using her natural authority as a better player to encourage them and make them feel welcome. So this woman was not leading by example, maybe the men were not welcoming her, because they also needed more shots to reach the green...

You both seem to be missing the point of the anecdote which is in the following sentence:

as a single-figure golfer, it was frustrating for her when she had to watch several shots being played before reaching her drive. She asked if she could mix in and play with a men’s group, but she received a categoric ‘NO’.

The point of this anecdote wasn't that she quit the club because of the poor skill of the people she played with; the point is that she simply asked to play with a group that was similarly skilled to her an was told no, because she has a different chromosome. "Hey, can I please play with some folks with similar handicaps sometime" is a totally appropriate request at any golf club. Even "hey, can I play with some different people occasionally" is generally encouraged at the clubs I've been a part of.

[Matt Schoolfield]

For those who wish to know more about both of these talented women, they have both recently featured on various podcasts

I really enjoyed the Christine Fraser interview on the Fore the Ladies podcast: https://www.foretheladies.com/post/ladies-of-golf-christine-fraser-golf-course-architect

At about the 16 minute mark, they discuss the topic here at some length, whether course design can expand inclusion in golf.

[Philip Gawith]

Good luck Nicolas. A very worthy cause. In the UK a lot of the traditional courses especially are pretty unappealing to women and the tendency is to extend the par rather than shorten the “men’s” course to suit women. As has been explained elsewhere, it is often the better women players who are most resistant to change. It is a curiously puritanical approach, with limited weight attached to whether the weaker golfer is having any pleasure!

[Thomas Dai]

Worth recalling that in yee olde times when Uk clubs were starting to be established it wasn’t unusual for a club to evolve during its first few years having a longer mens course, usually 18-holes, and a shorter women’s course, often only 9-holes.
Sometimes there’d be two clubs and two clubhouses. Whilst this pattern has generally dissipated over time in some places it still continues to co-exist.
Whether issues of course length, tee positioning etc in relation to gender or distance any individual of any age or gender can hit the ball is ever resolved (or is even resolvable??) is a different matter. I suggest however, that an absence of forced carries is a pretty crucial aspect.
Atb

[Ben Malach]

it's impressive this being the 40th reply and only I have mentioned rough, bunkers and other factors.


If distance was really the solution wouldn't a set of tees be the solution.


I think we also need to look at conditions, firmness of the ground and other factors that lead women to play a more challenging game than men.


I regularly play with my mother in her 60's and if I had to hit driver, 3 wood on every par 4 to get home. I would quit. Women golfers are in some ways more sturdy than their male companions as they happily accept a driver on a par 3. Where most seasoned men would just move up a tee.

[Niall C]

I have been staying out of this thread because I don't know if it's my place or not.

Why be a member of a Discussion Board if you are unsure whether you should comment ?

All of this seems like a marketing play by Nickolas. Which isn't bad but it's also a tough position to take in an era where we have two legitimate female architects getting work on their own name.

So are you suggesting that men shouldn't design women's courses ? What about the two legitimate female architects (what makes them legitimate ?), should they be restricted to only designing women's courses ?

I also think it's very tough and should be avoided whenever possible the phenomenon of men speaking for women. To that point I have been conducting for the past month a blind survey with the intent of co authoring a piece about the ideal women's golf club.

No one's speaking for women. They are suggesting ideas that they think might work for women, or in my case weaker players irrespective of their age/sex.

[Joe Hancock]

I am not sure what we’re talking about; is it club policies and social issues, or is it architecture? I am aging, and with that comes some health struggles. If I hit a driver now, it goes about 170 yards with a max height of 20 feet off the ground. My wife hits it past me.


I think we’re talking about skill levels and design…..or are we trying to work other issues into an otherwise logic-based discussion?

[Ben Malach]

Niall,


Sometimes having a voice means knowing when to use it and when to not.


I feel Nicholas's website is something that shouldn't come from a male perspective.


It's made even tougher if this is a branding play to brand yourself as a female focused architect. When there are great female architects. If you are playing that game we as young male architects are starting from a step behind in that space.


Not saying we can't or shouldn't design for all players. But if we are talking about Women's friendly golf, I can't really talk about it as a non woman because there are lots of things that as a man I don't experience.


Like notice how Christine talks about bathrooms a lot in her interviews with men. It's because that's a simple example that men often ignore when talking about a female experience in golf.


This whole thread has been men talking about their experiences and not one other than myself has probably engaged with this issue enough to understand. It reeks of male privilege to impose ideas onto the women's game without holding space for and opening comment to women.


If this thread was about designing or building courses for men or women. The gender of the architects shouldn't really matter as Christine and Angela have pointed out numerous times. But this thread isn't about that.


This thread is about a man imposing as system for rating courses friendliness to women. Which is completely overstepping. I was hesitant to comment because in doing so I bump the thread and bring light to this dumb idea. If he had female cofounders or other directors maybe but even then. This isn't our space as men to talk.


If we want to build better courses for more people we have to open our minds and listen. Speaking isn't the most important skill in architecture,  Listening is.

[Sean_A]

Niall,


Sometimes having a voice means knowing when to use it and when to not.


I feel Nicholas's website is something that shouldn't come from a male perspective.


It's made even tougher if this is a branding play to brand yourself as a female focused architect. When there are great female architects. If you are playing that game we as young male architects are starting from a step behind in that space.


Not saying we can't or shouldn't design for all players. But if we are talking about Women's friendly golf, I can't really talk about it as a non woman because there are lots of things that as a man I don't experience.


Like notice how Christine talks about bathrooms a lot in her interviews with men. It's because that's a simple example that men often ignore when talking about a female experience in golf.


This whole thread has been men talking about their experiences and not one other than myself has probably engaged with this issue enough to understand. It reeks of male privilege to impose ideas onto the women's game without holding space for and opening comment to women.


If this thread was about designing or building courses for men or women. The gender of the architects shouldn't really matter as Christine and Angela have pointed out numerous times. But this thread isn't about that.


This thread is about a man imposing as system for rating courses friendliness to women. Which is completely overstepping. I was hesitant to comment because in doing so I bump the thread and bring light to this dumb idea. If he had female cofounders or other directors maybe but even then. This isn't our space as men to talk.


If we want to build better courses for more people we have to open our minds and listen. Speaking isn't the most important skill in architecture,  Listening is.

I think the original op is about architecture? A few guys went left field into deeper cultural issues, but architecture is the main subject. So you have lost me.

Ciao

[Nicolas Joakimides]

This "women friendly golf course" project is about encouraging golf courses to do something for the 28 hcp women.
So , on the website , I am talking about distance, accessibility to the green and restroom.
Green firmness, bunker deepness and rough are important too in the design  but I think it would be asking too much right away.


I gave golf lessons and played a lot of pro-ams with senior women...so I know very well their game .
All the course I designed are short from the front tee ( 4600y par 72) and I would like to see this more often ( check my course Teelal , Morocco on this website)

[Thomas Dai]

Using the 36x5-iron basis that’s been mentioned herein a few times over the years then 18-holes totalling 4,600 yds gives a 5-iron distance of 128 yds.
Be interesting to know what proportion of 28 hcp women carry their 5-iron this far?
Atb

[Charlie Goerges]

Using the 36x5-iron basis that’s been mentioned herein a few times over the years then 18-holes totalling 4,600 yds gives a 5-iron distance of 128 yds.
Be interesting to know what proportion of 28 hcp women carry their 5-iron this far?
Atb

Exactly, and this is what I think Ben M. was getting at way earlier. When I was a teen, the manager of the course I worked at was an older lady who basically fit the description. A 380-yard par 5 was a Driver, 5-wood, 5-wood, iron for her when hitting it well. If she murdered a 5-wood off the tee, it could go up to 120 yards. Basically every course around would have been a slog for her. That said, she still played and had fun, but I'll be honest that I don't know if I could have fun if every par 4 required at least two crushed wood shots to get home. As it is, I can move up, for fun (and have), but she didn't have that option, at least within the rules. She could have teed up in the fairway or something, but I never saw her do that.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

When I was a teen, the manager of the course I worked at was an older lady who basically fit the description. A 380-yard par 5 was a Driver, 5-wood, 5-wood, iron for her when hitting it well.

If her 5W goes 120… at some point, you kinda end up drawing a line. She could have played from wherever she wanted - expecting to have tees at… 3000 yards so she can get close to her 5I x 36 yardage… The courses that do have those just put tee markers in the fairway.

I have a wife and a daughter (albeit a daughter who is a +1), so I'm in support of better playing conditions for women (and juniors), but I don't think you can fully accommodate everyone with the full experience. What do you do if a 75-year-old woman only hits her high-lofted driver 85 yards?

[archie_struthers]

 


Too many tee boxes , way too much clutter. Same thing with tee markers.  If I were the king of the world there would be a maximum of three tees out , preferably two . Anyone who is under a five handicap can walk to the tips at anytime and let it rip.


However , I'm all in for shorter tees for anyone who chooses to play them but not at all interested in building them and maintaining them daily . Put them down in the fairway and move them around depending on the day. Tell all your lesser players to enjoy and keep it moving