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Matthew Mollica

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Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« on: December 22, 2024, 10:04:29 PM »
What do we think is the most important element of a consulting architect's role at a Golden Age course?


Pragmatic approach to periodic course work
Respect of original design intent
Construction quality & style which matches the original build character
Strict control of members who might otherwise see their course suffer


Something else?


Matt
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Mark_Fine

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2024, 10:36:14 PM »
Education!

Chris Hughes

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 12:13:49 AM »
What do we think is the most important element of a consulting architect's role at a Golden Age course?


Pragmatic approach to periodic course work
Respect of original design intent
Construction quality & style which matches the original build character
Strict control of members who might otherwise see their course suffer


Something else?


Matt



D.  Keep the members fools who think they know better from screwing it up.  :-\

All joking aside, the job of keeping the fools at bay mostly falls on the shoulders of club leadership but the consulting architect absolutely should impress upon them how incredibly dangerous "meddling" can be/become.

By chance, I recently stumbled upon Joe Sponcia's "Green Committee Primer" post from 9-years ago, here:

Green Committee Primer - Golf Club Atlas

Great read.

It's a slippery slope...  (might start with something as simple as changing fairway mowing "lines"nod to Craig Sweet without consulting the Architect of Record)

A great course I've played a lot has one particular green that, let's say, very frequently attracts outsized attention from the armchairs...my name for the hole is Mesa.  (follows Java, precedes Mirage)

Regularly as we walk onto the green a playing partner will start whingeing about the design and usually suggest how it should be changed, in their opinion. 

My response is to state the green for Mesa is "Hands Down one of my two favorite on the golf course" (along with Mirage), and then I invoke a question learned from a brilliant Super I am fortunate to know -- "what will you change next"?

This usually stumps them...

...again, it's a slippery slope.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:27:10 AM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Chris Hughes

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"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Simon Barrington

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 03:14:53 AM »
Education is key especially of those who Tom Simpson famously called "the Invincibly Ignorant".

There are exceptions of course, but the level of knowledge on Boards and Committees in some Clubs is (very sadly) incrediby low, and the lack of openness and debate can be even lower.

The responsibility of a good architect in these circumstances is to protect and enhance what remains of an ODG's intent, style and philosophies. Resisting change should be the starting position if genuinely important architecture is present. Recovery of what has been lost the next consideration.

They should work closely with the club historian/archivist, and preferably external researchers who know the ODGs work, to ensure they have a extremely good perspective on what remains and what may have been lost (and why) over the years. I have known Clubs actively to disuade or prevent that happening to target "modernisation" (whatever that nebulous justification means) the detriment of the result.

Recent work across the UK does not give me great hope that architects understand this, or are prepared to resist unnecessary and damaging changes to classic courses requested by the unknowing people in charge. They need to protect them from themselves.

The US seems far more advanced in this regard, the UK is behind (with some notable exceptions)

N.B. These courses don't have to be only "top-ranked" to deserve protection from those in charge, there are many examples highlighted by numerous tours on here (by Sean, Dai and others) that show genuinely interesting architecture worthy of preservation/protection can be found in all corners of GB & I

I also think architects (who I have huge respect for) have a responsibility to their own CV/Resume in terms of every project they put their name to.

Bowing to a poor client (Board/Committee) and allowing their name to be on poor and inappropriate work is in my view a career limiting downslope they should not get on.

I think architects, like golfers, are only as good as their worst efforts.

Great projects need both good architects and good clients, the latter needs the former to help them be so.


BTW -
I ran a similar question to this post on another place back in January:

"If a Board at a historic course laid out by a noted designer (ODG) asks an architect to ignore the heritage and ethos in a "modernisation" masterplan and make wholesale changes, what should the architect do?"

Vote results:

Refuse to do the Plan                    7%


Educate the client                 85.9%

Suggest another architect           5.6%


Do the Plan and take the £          1.4%


These results were telling to say the least, and somewhat reassuring that those who engaged have the same concerns.

So perhaps there is hope, but only if the architects listen...and educate
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:31:11 AM by Simon Barrington »

Sean_A

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 03:40:26 AM »
The consulting archie’s isn’t solely about preservation. There are legitimate reasons to “modernize” ODG designs. Safety is often cited and sometimes this is a legit reason. Sometimes a course is so badly messed up and without a clear blueprint of an original design that there is little to hark back to. There is an oldish club in Detroit which took the bold decision to rip up what they had and build a largely new course. IMO it was done extremely well. A major aspect of the archie’s job was to educate the membership on the direction he wanted to go and why. A good archie is a good archie.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Simon Barrington

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 05:06:15 AM »
The consulting archie’s isn’t solely about preservation. There are legitimate reasons to “modernize” ODG designs. Safety is often cited and sometimes this is a legit reason. Sometimes a course is so badly messed up and without a clear blueprint of an original design that there is little to hark back to. There is an oldish club in Detroit which took the bold decision to rip up what they had and build a largely new course. IMO it was done extremely well. A major aspect of the archie’s job was to educate the membership on the direction he wanted to go and why. A good archie is a good archie.
Ciao
Agree with almost all of this, and to be clear I am certainly not anti-enhancement nor new creativity/technology.

These are not mutually exclusive, as modern construction and materials might even enhance a heritage course and release the full scope of original intent that the ODG might not have been able to back in the day. Maintaining "suspended decay" naturalised bunkering in a more stable way for example, or utilising eco-revetting for structure and reduce maintenance (less edging etc.), or superior irrigation to open playing corridors etc. etc.

The caveat being if there are known features, styles, heritage and strategy that could be considered worthy of preservation/enhancement then it should be the case that these are protected or even dialled-up.

I have been involved with dealing with safety aspects, successfuly so by returning to an ODGs style and strategic philosophies.
We have subsequently had several architects in over the years at that same club to do reports pitching to be consulting architects.
Most surprising has been that they all have been really poor in understanding those same (obvious) safety issues, and even suggested removal of some of the key strategic deterrents that have been proven to work over time, by reducing propensity and frequency of balls played towards the danger areas of a constrained site.

In your Detroit example, revision is of course OK in such circumstances, presumably the effort was made exhaustively to check if there was anything worth keeping/enhancing. In the absence of that and if the members/owner wishes then the architects creativity is blissfully unconstrained.

Medinah No.3 for example is an interesting one at a Club/Course whose heritage is hardly unresearched and unknown (few clubs would have as much photographic and video evidence of its "evolution"). But it had gone so far away from any semblence of original or relevant heritage that it essentially became a clean slate for new thought and creativity by a great team, in OCM.
They educated all as to their suggested approach, there was broad buy in at leadership level, and subsequently the membership to the concept.

Essentialy both these examples are the same process that I suggested; research, check, and educate. Then be creative in execution.
If there is scope for new creativity in whole or part, then a good architect can provide solutions.

I just want all architects to be good architects, and be respectful custodians and educators of our built heritage that inspires so many (even if the overwhelming majority golfers don't know why it does).
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:26:30 AM by Simon Barrington »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 07:08:37 AM »
Do not ignore the reason why a clubs leader or committee have asked a consulting architect to become involved. Vested interests and the opinions of self important influential individuals and committee members tend to abound within golf clubs. Openness and transparency aren’t totally unknown though and some individuals and even committees can approach matters in an angelic manner although this is usually rather rare.
The leader or committee will have a reason for asking a consultant architect to become involved, it’s their reason, and they are unlikely to want a consulting architect to propose something different. It’s usually worth investigating what the reason really is.
Atb

Carl Johnson

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 09:02:45 AM »
Keep in mind that the leadership, committee, etc. must first call in the consulting architect for a consultation.  What happens when the leadership decides it's not necessary to call in the consulting architect.  I know that the subject of this thread assumes that the consulting architect will be called in, but it doesn't always happen, even when required by the club's bylaws.

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 09:26:07 AM »
Simple answer: improve the course.



Openness and transparency

Thomas hits it square.



Any "improvement" to a course will always be judged subjectively but knowing the motivation for such alterations and the architect's ideas on his/her marching orders and ideas should ideally be known universally and then debated.



I've never belonged to a "proper" club but I hope the quiet 18 handicapper who plays three days a week (and has paid his dues) with his buddies at least has the info-if not the influence-to chime in.





Jim_Coleman

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 10:12:19 AM »
    I’d prefer to get marching orders rather than give them. Hire the best architect you can find and ask him what he thinks needs to be done to improve the course. I suppose you can tell him how much you’re willing/able to spend. But then, listen. If you can, maybe get more than one opinion before deciding.

Rob Marshall

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 10:17:58 AM »
You can hire a great architect and still not get great results. Everyone makes mistakes.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

mike_malone

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 10:31:55 AM »
Listening


  Consulting architects tend to be very good technicians. Those that specialize in restoration, for example, know how to research the historical file , do the work, and educate the members.


 Listening enables them to grasp the club culture.


This doesn’t mean agreeing with crackpots. It means processing that information which may have a grain of truth.


If members feel that they were listened to they may be more willing to drop their personal ideas and accept the total result.
Listening also gives the consultant a chance to respond. They may also find that some are worth listening to because they make the consultant’s work easier.

I’m not suggesting that this is easy or that there is  a correct way to do it but I think it is paramount.


Listening enables the consultant to get closer to making the course as great as it can be.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:37:00 AM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 11:48:18 AM »
The truth of this is that most golf course architects are great SALESMEN and the only question is whether you're buying what they're selling.


They will call it a restoration when it's not, if your members like that word better.


They will educate you to agree with their ideas.


A great salesman will tell you that he is only selling you what you really need, but the more it costs, the more wary you should be . . . because he is a great salesman.


I got to spend a lot of time with Pete Dye and a little bit of time with Robert Trent Jones, and I came away thinking that the only two things they had in common were that they had both seen a lot of golf, and that they were two of the greatest salesmen who ever lived.


Merry Christmas to all of the DG !

mike_malone

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 12:32:35 PM »
The best skill of a great salesman is listening 
AKA Mayday

Bruce Katona

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 02:12:05 PM »
1. Making the sales pitch
2. Closing the sales pitch
3. Delivering what was promised on time.
4. Getting paid and making sure the check clears.

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 04:00:27 PM »
The truth of this is that most golf course architects are great SALESMEN...


1. Making the sales pitch
2. Closing the sales pitch
3. Delivering what was promised on time.
4. Getting paid and making sure the check clears.


The best skill of a great salesman is listening 



At least Tom mentioned "architect" in his reply.

Bruce, Mike,
Were your replies tongue in cheek or the reality of the profession or your experiences as a member of a club?

Thanks,
Peter.








mike_malone

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 07:15:09 PM »
The truth of this is that most golf course architects are great SALESMEN...


1. Making the sales pitch
2. Closing the sales pitch
3. Delivering what was promised on time.
4. Getting paid and making sure the check clears.


The best skill of a great salesman is listening 



At least Tom mentioned "architect" in his reply.

Bruce, Mike,
Were your replies tongue in cheek or the reality of the profession or your experiences as a member of a club?

Thanks,
Peter.


Experience
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #18 on: Today at 10:31:18 AM »
First, to Bruce, thank you for backing me up.


The best skill of a great salesman is listening


I actually think that listening is much more important on a new project than on a consulting project.


For a new project, you generally have a single client and there are lots of different approaches you could take to the course . . . so it only makes sense to listen to what the client says he wants, and try to think about what kind of design would fit best with that particular client and property.  Indeed, I think that having different clients with different goals is one of the main things that keeps one's work from getting stagnant over time.  I worry when I meet someone who can't tell me what they really want, and just seem to be talking to me because other people think I'm the best guy.


At a private club, though, you've got 300 members to please, and there is no way you are going to be able to please them all.  Many of them really have no idea what they are talking about, and sometimes the chairman of the green committee doesn't, either.  I think the best approach there is to go in and tell them your honest opinion of what the potential is and what needs to be done.  And if they don't agree, they can choose someone else, and I won't lose a night's sleep thinking about it, because I gave them my best advice.


What has always befuddled me is that many architects go in there and make their best sales pitch about drainage and bunker liners and other things that can improve the course physically, because those are things where they don't have to argue for their design ideas!


I have never been a fan of salesmen . . . I run away from them when they come up to me in stores.  My late friend Dave Richards [a marketing guy] once said to me, "If you had to sell shoes for a living, you'd starve," and I responded that if I had to sell shoes for a living, I'd want to die.  But, the irony is that I have a lot of stories people like to hear, and I'm really good at explaining my ideas, and that turns out to be a compelling form of salesmanship in itself.  The difference is, I'm not there to make the sale . . . I don't even want the work unless we agree on what we should do.

mike_malone

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #19 on: Today at 10:56:53 AM »
First, to Bruce, thank you for backing me up.


The best skill of a great salesman is listening


I actually think that listening is much more important on a new project than on a consulting project.


For a new project, you generally have a single client and there are lots of different approaches you could take to the course . . . so it only makes sense to listen to what the client says he wants, and try to think about what kind of design would fit best with that particular client and property.  Indeed, I think that having different clients with different goals is one of the main things that keeps one's work from getting stagnant over time.  I worry when I meet someone who can't tell me what they really want, and just seem to be talking to me because other people think I'm the best guy.


At a private club, though, you've got 300 members to please, and there is no way you are going to be able to please them all.  Many of them really have no idea what they are talking about, and sometimes the chairman of the green committee doesn't, either.  I think the best approach there is to go in and tell them your honest opinion of what the potential is and what needs to be done.  And if they don't agree, they can choose someone else, and I won't lose a night's sleep thinking about it, because I gave them my best advice.


What has always befuddled me is that many architects go in there and make their best sales pitch about drainage and bunker liners and other things that can improve the course physically, because those are things where they don't have to argue for their design ideas!


I have never been a fan of salesmen . . . I run away from them when they come up to me in stores.  My late friend Dave Richards [a marketing guy] once said to me, "If you had to sell shoes for a living, you'd starve," and I responded that if I had to sell shoes for a living, I'd want to die.  But, the irony is that I have a lot of stories people like to hear, and I'm really good at explaining my ideas, and that turns out to be a compelling form of salesmanship in itself.  The difference is, I'm not there to make the sale . . . I don't even want the work unless we agree on what we should do.


I hear that.

Even as expert as architects are they only see the archival material once or twice. It helps them to have people who have seen it hundreds or more. It’s amazing what can be overlooked.
AKA Mayday

Kalen Braley

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #20 on: Today at 10:57:07 AM »
Tom, I'm a little confused by your last post.

As you stated a few posts back if most GCAs are great salespeople...it follows that the measure of greatness would be actually winning jobs.

Given you've also won a lot of jobs, does that not mean you are in fact a great salesman too, even if you don't think of yourself as such?