Coore-Crenshaw Template?

[David_Tepper]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/coore-crenshaw-favorite-golf-hole-template?utm_medium=email&utm_source=122224&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM58694&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0

[Colin Sheehan]

To me, it's always been a motif, not a template. There's way too much variety in each of those greens and holes.

[Tom_Doak]

That's absolutely a template.  It is correct to say they don't always use it the same way, but they've used the green shape on many to most of their courses that I can recall, apart from Kapalua.


Was surprised to see the photo of Te Arai (South) . . . when that was built and when last I saw it, they just had a mound eating into the green, but there wasn't a bunker to start with.

[Mike Worth]

Hidden Creek #11 and Sand Hills 17 are nearly identical.  Short uphill par 3


The bunker scheme for both is exactly the same.  From the member tees HC 11 plays 120 yds. SH from the same tee plays 130 yards


There is a subtle almost imperceptible tilt from right to left on both although the tilt at SH is a tad greater than the one that HC.


If one isn’t paying attention, you can hit your short iron slightly off-line to the right and be in one of the right hand bunkers because of this tilt.

[Ronald Montesano]

I was about to say NAAAAAHHHH, but if TD says AYE, then it's an aye.

The thing with the MacDonald/Raynor templates was, they were identical, save the Redan/Reverse Redan element. There is flexibility in what C&C Dirt Band have created, so allow me to coin the term FLEMPLATE, to represent the flexible template. It is also spelled PHLEGMPLATE, in other parts of the known world.

[Tim Martin]

I was about to say NAAAAAHHHH, but if TD says AYE, then it's an aye.

#CriticalThinker

[Tom_Doak]

The thing with the MacDonald/Raynor templates was, they were identical, save the Redan/Reverse Redan element.

Well, not really.  Raynor used the Redan green on a par 4 sometimes, eg. the first hole at The Creek.  And the Redan green at NGLA is entirely different than the Redan green at Shoreacres.


I have repeated myself, too, but I’m pretty sure I haven’t used one particular green design as often as this.

[Scott Warren]

The Yale, Fishers Island & National redans are all incredibly different holes and they’re all within 50 miles of each other and built within 15 years (Fishers and Yale opened the same year).


The MacRaynor templates were always just that. Not facsimiles.

[Thomas Dai]

I believe I’ve read it suggested that another favourite template is a long, straight par-5 with a boundary line immediately adjacent to one side of the hole and with bunkering on the opposite side particularly short of the green.
Atb

[Cal Seifert]

I believe I’ve read it suggested that another favourite template is a long, straight par-5 with a boundary line immediately adjacent to one side of the hole and with bunkering on the opposite side particularly short of the green.
Atb

That’s what came to my head before reading the article as well

[Dan_Callahan]

The Yale, Fishers Island & National redans are all incredibly different holes and they’re all within 50 miles of each other and built within 15 years (Fishers and Yale opened the same year).

I've never understood why the Yale redan is called a redan. It is nothing like the original, nor is it like the redans at National and Shinnecock. It plays significantly downhill. There really isn't an option of bouncing it in from the right (although that could be more of a maintenance issue). And the green itself slopes from back to front, rather than running away from you.

[MCirba]

I've never understood why the Yale redan is called a redan. It is nothing like the original, nor is it like the redans at National and Shinnecock. It plays significantly downhill. There really isn't an option of bouncing it in from the right (although that could be more of a maintenance issue). And the green itself slopes from back to front, rather than running away from you.

Dan,


The redan at Yale reminds me of the one at Mid-Ocean where the landforms and elevation drop make it difficult to hit a shot that chases left and away after landing.

[Tim Martin]

I've never understood why the Yale redan is called a redan. It is nothing like the original, nor is it like the redans at National and Shinnecock. It plays significantly downhill. There really isn't an option of bouncing it in from the right (although that could be more of a maintenance issue). And the green itself slopes from back to front, rather than running away from you.

Dan,


The redan at Yale reminds me of the one at Mid-Ocean where the landforms and elevation drop make it difficult to hit a shot that chases left and away after landing.

You almost always get the back left pin in it’s current form and have to hit it deep right to get it to track left off the bounce. I’m expecting this green to be significantly reworked by Hanse to have it function as a proper redan. More than a few players have been heartbroken by a shortish shot that either rolls back off the green or stays high right.

[Ryan Book]

Getting back to the Coore-Crenshaw template at play, my immediate thought was to whether it differentiated enough from the "Lion's Mouth" concept enough to justify being a separate template. I immediately course-corrected, however, as there is a history of architects warping MacRaynor concepts into ideas that push the envelope enough to both resemble the original idea in some way, while irritating purists when the original terminology is used to describe it. For example, I have taken to specifying whether I am discussing a "MacRaynor Cape" or a "Dye Cape" so to avoid heel-nipping.


Granted, "Coore-Crenshaw Lion's Mouth" is a mouthful, so I propose "Tiger's Mouth" as the name. Who Dey.

[Mark_Fine]

On this site there always seems to be a negation connotation associated with templates.  A template is just a model or a pattern used to help create something and that something doesn’t have to be identical. All architects use templates to some extent whether they admit it or not.  Name one architect that hasn’t built more than one dogleg hole or cape hole or elbow hole or straight hole or …. How many architects haven’t incorporated classic design concepts like a redan or a Biarritz swale or a punchbowl style green,….  The best architects dress up their holes differently but the bodies are often the same.  It is not surprising as All architects are constrained by the fact that they have to have a starting point for every hole and finish with a 4 1/4” hole surrounded by a putting surface and do this 18 times.  Sometimes they are told where the 1st hole and 10th hole must start and where the 9th and 18th must finish.  And furthermore most are told they need a fixed number of par three, par four, and par five holes that add up to a set par of 70-72. It is no wonder that many golf courses have similar type holes.  Tom Fazio once stated he never built the same hole twice.  Technically he is correct as that would be impossible but if you play enough of his or anyone’s courses you will see some very close similarities.  Moreover, how many times did Pete Dye use a 5-3-4 finish or Ross follow a long par four with a benign par five.  These are essentially templates as well.  C&C are no different than anyone else when it comes to having favorite design concepts they like to employ when and where it makes sense. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Calling Cabot Cliffs #2 a template of an Apse hole is pretty laughable.  That is one of the most unique holes that I have ever played.