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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #50 on: December 25, 2024, 08:44:18 PM »
Does the computer program know if a green is going to dry out during the day and make a marginal location turn bad?
Yes, and roll-out is just a slope %.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2024, 10:13:14 PM »
Erik...how many holes have you cut? Have you ever played golf?  Do you know ANYTHING about agronomy? 


Carl...I think lots of clubs spend money on things they don't need. I'd take the two additional employees and a Super that has worked a few years at your club any day over pin location software  The dry locations, those areas most susceptible to wear and tear, are the same areas every year.  Your guy knows it and he plans for it. Hand watering, avoiding a pin there...all those things.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2024, 11:04:05 PM »
Amusing to watch hole positions being set for elite am and elite pro tournaments.
Seems like dozens of ‘officials’ usually in matching outfits on the green, rolling balls, standing chatting and scratching their chins watching while one bloke uses the hole cutter. And then there’s the supervision of trimming the hole edge with the special scissors and the whitening of the hole itself.
 :)
Atb




Imagine how crazy that dance must have been at Kingston Heath & Victoria in November...!!!  ;D


They were definitely determined to not be accused of making the pins easy to allow for the women.


One of the biggest problems is mistaking easy pins for dull pins and interesting pins for difficult pins. Members complain about difficult pins and the result is in order to avoid criticism the superintendent puts them in 'easy' spots which are often just dull.
Instead of seeing them as 'easy' or 'hard' better to see then as 'interesting' or 'dull' and avoid the dull as much as possible.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2024, 05:44:14 AM »
 8)


On courses that play year round that are cold in the winter you might see a super use the outer edges of the green more often , specifically those closer to cart path on certain holes. This may mitigate some damage from frost related damage to the surface.  It's been my experience the better the superintendent, the least rules as to cart traffic et al.


Always thought it best if setting was a collaborative effort between the ground maintenance department and the golf professional staff.  Made for more thought and an acknowledged that  this was an important daily activity. You hoped both played at least a little and gave thought on a daily basis who was on the tee sheet that day. Weather conditions also play a part in the decision , strong winds affect just how far the tees should be set on many days.


i always liked an easier set-up on the weekends, let's have some fun and shoot some low scores. Good for sales in the pub

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2024, 04:39:36 PM »
Erik...how many holes have you cut?
Hundreds.

Have you ever played golf?
Someone disagrees with you, and that's your comeback? Ha. Okay pal.

Do you know ANYTHING about agronomy?
Yep.

You said: "NO computer is going to do a better job determining pin location than experienced eyes on the green."

I can think of several reasons why a computer could, even if it's only some of the time, determine a better hole location than "experienced eyes" on the green.

Humans are imperfect. They have biases. They miss things.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2024, 11:02:56 PM »
I doubt you've cut one single hole, much less hundreds...so yeah, I'm calling BS on your claim.


Erik, you are in favor of replacing all employees at a golf course with robots and computers. Hahhaaaahhaaa!! 


Sorry bud, but human eyes and experience will do a MUCH better job than your robots and computers and analytics that say angles don't matter.


Perfection only matters to a "numbers guy".....

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2024, 09:38:40 AM »
I doubt you've cut one single hole, much less hundreds...so yeah, I'm calling BS on your claim.
Okay. I mean, I cut holes for high school and college events across several years, and I worked with the superintendent when I was a member at one of my former clubs quite a bit. I've even cut non-standard sized holes for Big Cup events (where you can put them on some pretty wicked slopes).

But this seems emblematic of your whole approach here: just make statements and screw the facts.

Erik, you are in favor of replacing all employees at a golf course with robots and computers. Hahhaaaahhaaa!!
Nice straw man. I never said that.

And someone still has to go CUT the holes, after all. A computer program CAN do a better job of telling the person WHERE to cut them.

Perfection only matters to a "numbers guy".....
Facts only seem to matter to us, too.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2024, 09:49:44 AM »
   Whether a machine is better at something than a human is an issue with huge sociological ramifications. Cutting a hole in a green isn’t one of them. If the program costs pretty much anything, I suspect the money could be better spent.

Chris Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2024, 10:12:20 AM »
   Whether a machine is better at something than a human is an issue with huge sociological ramifications. Cutting a hole in a green isn’t one of them. If the program costs pretty much anything, I suspect the money could be better spent.


I could not agree more. 


My practical experience with such a "program" has been decidedly negative.

"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2024, 10:26:46 AM »


On courses that play year round that are cold in the winter you might see a super use the outer edges of the green more often , specifically those closer to cart path on certain holes. This may mitigate some damage from frost related damage to the surface. 

In the last four weeks, I've encountered more "outer edges" pin spots than I remember. Is that a 2024 aberation?

Archie, does the proximity of a cart path really dictate hole locations in winter--or any other time?
Genuinely curious.

As to the OP:
Why would the day of the week matter? Did you ask why?
It would've never occurred to me as well.







Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2024, 12:03:06 PM »
Cutting a hole in a green isn’t one of them. If the program costs pretty much anything, I suspect the money could be better spent.
The program doesn't cut the hole, it simply tells the person where to cut the hole, and in doing so, can:
  • spread wear throughout the green
  • provide a different set of hole locations every day of the year
  • maintain a difficulty profile that's consistent and/or tweaked for certain events or tournaments
  • balance short game shots
  • influence the sand splash from bunkers to various hole locations
  • etc.
We have software that automates sprinkler heads. We have software that automates (or sets schedules) for applications of pesticides and other inputs (minerals, seed head suppressors, growth agents, wetting agents, whatever).

Software that sets hole locations can/is a part of other more comprehensive applications, and can tie in to a course's GPS system in carts.

And again, this is a reaction to the idea that a software program can never out-do a person. Software can. Costs and other things are just straw men.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2024, 12:49:17 PM »
I have cut holes.  I was a college student and worked at a golf course for two summers.  Obviously, I have other experience in golf courses and how they play.  I have also used my CAD system to draw those colored "heat maps" based on collected field data.  It's actually kind of fascinating.  Before retirement, one thing I learned was that the contours on greens look way different than the way I imagined them before.

For anyone who knows contour maps, you will know that a road with a crown shows up as almost no "bump" for the crown on a steep road, but that same 6" crown on a flat road goes for hundreds of feet, which looks impossible.  Similarly, the contour lines I drew by eye turn out to look like deeper canyons than gentle swales on 1.5-3% green surfaces.

The programs that supplement these heat maps can be quite precise.  The course still needs human input to set up the program, and as usual, garbage in, garbage out.  The course needs to go out and show the pin positions that are iffy at various green speeds.  That, BTW, is something I learned from TEPaul on this forum years ago - just go measure the slopes on the pin positions that give you trouble and hold the % slope below that in any cup setting or renovation.  I have done it ever since, and found that the USGA and Masters methods of holding pins on crossed measured slopes at any point on the green worked!  It used to be, at speeds of 13, that using a digital level to measure at 90deg. angles to each other should total less than 5.5, i.e., 2.75% downhill + 2.75% cross slope is the max cuppable at 13.)  Now, with greens at 15 for those tournaments, the total must be 5 or less.

And once you start measuring like that, with that level of precision, there is nothing you can do better than use a slope program and mapping it.  Yes, not as romantic as the old course where pin locations were set at cross points from nearby steeples and other features to get it exactly where it needed to be.  But the human eye can be fooled, even if quite experienced, especially in sloping ground which can sometimes make contours look different than they actually are.


The program factors in different speeds, which still must be measured with a stimpmeter to get the critical slopes for various seasonal differences or tournament speeds.  And the program can be set to those anticipated speeds for any situation.  The winter map typically shows far less green area than the summer map, etc. (green being cupping space, orange borderline, and red a no go).  And, the green is gridded off to make getting the cup where it should be easier to locate.

I will also add that where I worked, the cup setting job was usually given to the least qualified guy (who wouldn't yet be trusted to run a greens mower and other equipment) at least for daily settings.  Yes, the pro shop dictated where the pins went for tournaments.  In my case, as a golfer, it was an upgrade over the previous guy who wasn't a golfer.  I suspect that with labor shortages today (which I don't see ending soon) it might be more important to have someone from above (reading that computerized heat map) give some help in setting those cups.

I don't get the negative reaction.  As Erik notes, everything is moving from more art to more science (and than God for that.  Do we still prefer blood letting to micro surgery?)  And if you are serious, why don't we start a thread on how robotic mowers cannot mow as well as humans?  That is coming, too.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #62 on: Yesterday at 01:00:07 AM »

I don't get the negative reaction. 

When "AI" shows up and a steady series of absurd pins that are unplayable (or borderline thereof) are forthcoming, it tends to generate a "negative reaction".

As Erik notes, everything is moving from more art to more science.

Erik said so, it must be true.

Do we still prefer blood letting to micro surgery?

Not relevant.

And if you are serious, why don't we start a thread on how robotic mowers cannot mow as well as humans?

Here:  Robomowing and future design

That is coming, too.

Doesn't sound like anytime soon based on the expert commentary (Nysse, Fitzgerald, etc) in the thread linked.

"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #63 on: Yesterday at 08:10:14 AM »
If a pin is “unplayable”, that isn’t the fault of the software; somebody still has to go out on the green and actually cut the pin. The assumption on this thread that pins that are near the edge of a green are too difficult is a questionable generalization in and of itself, but the idea that a piece of software is ultimately responsible for that is a pretty weird idea. 


The software is just a tool to help Supers do an extremely demanding job more effectively and more quickly, and they can not only set up the program any way they want to (alternating front middle, and back positions, or various other rotations) but the program can also be ignored at the Super’s discretion. 


Some Supers like the software, some don’t. But it isn’t because it costs jobs or any other silly idea like that.  I think the Supers that don’t like the software don’t think it’s precise enough, and that their guys still have to use a lot of discretion in picking the actual pin location.


Two years ago when the Daniel Island Club was hosting the US Junior, the USGA guys picked the pin locations.  On one hole, the guy who was actually cutting the pins, and had been for years, refused to cut the pin until one of the Supers came out to tell him it was ok, because he KNEW it as a bad location.  The USGA got its way, with predictable results.  The point being that regardless of HOW a hole location is picked, a human being still has to go,out on that green and cut the hole.  Blaming software for a bad pin is pretty poor aim for blame.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #64 on: Yesterday at 10:10:16 AM »
If a pin is “unplayable”, that isn’t the fault of the software; somebody still has to go out on the green and actually cut the pin. The assumption on this thread that pins that are near the edge of a green are too difficult is a questionable generalization in and of itself, but the idea that a piece of software is ultimately responsible for that is a pretty weird idea. 


The software is just a tool to help Supers do an extremely demanding job more effectively and more quickly, and they can not only set up the program any way they want to (alternating front middle, and back positions, or various other rotations) but the program can also be ignored at the Super’s discretion. 


Some Supers like the software, some don’t. But it isn’t because it costs jobs or any other silly idea like that.  I think the Supers that don’t like the software don’t think it’s precise enough, and that their guys still have to use a lot of discretion in picking the actual pin location.


Two years ago when the Daniel Island Club was hosting the US Junior, the USGA guys picked the pin locations.  On one hole, the guy who was actually cutting the pins, and had been for years, refused to cut the pin until one of the Supers came out to tell him it was ok, because he KNEW it as a bad location.  The USGA got its way, with predictable results.  The point being that regardless of HOW a hole location is picked, a human being still has to go,out on that green and cut the hole.  Blaming software for a bad pin is pretty poor aim for blame.


AG, You just made Chris's point. He is saying you can't use the program in and of itself. Software says you put it here and that is where it goes without any human consideration doesn't work in his opinion and that is what I get from your post.


The USGA has set a lot of bad pins. Cost Payne Stewart a US Open at Olympic no? Peoples make mistakes.


My experience is similar to Jeff's in that bad locations come from a grounds crew member who doesn't play golf...







If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #65 on: Yesterday at 10:25:02 AM »
[quote author=A.G._Crockett link=topic=73459.msg1762617#msg1762617 date=1735391414]
If a pin is “unplayable”, that isn’t the fault of the software; somebody still has to go out on the green and actually cut the pin. The assumption on this thread that pins that are near the edge of a green are too difficult is a questionable generalization in and of itself, but the idea that a piece of software is ultimately responsible for that is a pretty weird idea.


Threads morph.  I started the thread, so let me chime back in.  Intentionally, I did not say that edge pin positions are too difficult.  I asked why only on weekdays?  Two responders have addressed that, and only one directly and incompletely.  My own view is that edge pin positions on all greens all the time are not good, though there can be reasons for it -- such as trying to bring back failing greens.  Moreover, as I've and others have also stated, it is clear that the "robot" does not cut the pin. The robot does not decide to use edge pin positions on every green every day.  Edge pin positions can be very playable, but they provide a challenge that's different.  Moreover, central positions can be very difficult or unplayable.  How about playability, variety and different sorts of challenges?


Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #66 on: Yesterday at 11:21:45 AM »
I don't believe there are any rules on how close the pin should be to the edge of the green. However, I'm pretty sure I remember that the USGA suggests that the hole should be at least the length of pin from the edge.


Carl,
My club has some pretty good tilt to the greens. With members wanting or demanding greens that run at a minimum of 10 we lose a lot of pins. That tends to push our pins to the fringes at some times. I will say however that we have what I would consider average size greens and I've yet to see wear spots develop on a green. We do about 19,000 rounds in Western NY. What does create a problem isn't wear but we end up with a lot of old cups in certain areas of the greens.


I also think that if you are seeing more pins on the edges during the week, it would be because there is less play and therefore less complaining than there would be on a weekend.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 11:33:39 AM »
If a pin is “unplayable”, that isn’t the fault of the software; somebody still has to go out on the green and actually cut the pin. The assumption on this thread that pins that are near the edge of a green are too difficult is a questionable generalization in and of itself, but the idea that a piece of software is ultimately responsible for that is a pretty weird idea. 


The software is just a tool to help Supers do an extremely demanding job more effectively and more quickly, and they can not only set up the program any way they want to (alternating front middle, and back positions, or various other rotations) but the program can also be ignored at the Super’s discretion. 


Some Supers like the software, some don’t. But it isn’t because it costs jobs or any other silly idea like that.  I think the Supers that don’t like the software don’t think it’s precise enough, and that their guys still have to use a lot of discretion in picking the actual pin location.


Two years ago when the Daniel Island Club was hosting the US Junior, the USGA guys picked the pin locations.  On one hole, the guy who was actually cutting the pins, and had been for years, refused to cut the pin until one of the Supers came out to tell him it was ok, because he KNEW it as a bad location.  The USGA got its way, with predictable results.  The point being that regardless of HOW a hole location is picked, a human being still has to go,out on that green and cut the hole.  Blaming software for a bad pin is pretty poor aim for blame.


AG, You just made Chris's point. He is saying you can't use the program in and of itself. Software says you put it here and that is where it goes without any human consideration doesn't work in his opinion and that is what I get from your post.


The USGA has set a lot of bad pins. Cost Payne Stewart a US Open at Olympic no? Peoples make mistakes.


My experience is similar to Jeff's in that bad locations come from a grounds crew member who doesn't play golf...


Who claimed that you should/could ONLY use the software?  Nobody uses it that way. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 03:23:20 PM »

I also think that if you are seeing more pins on the edges during the week, it would be because there is less play and therefore less complaining than there would be on a weekend.


O.K. - that's an idea, Rob.  What about the idea (private club) that only the old men and ladies play during the week, and who cares about them.  The real golfers play on the weekend and that is the primary constituency we are serving.

(By the way, all the commentary about pin placement software is enlightening.  Until a couple of months ago I didn't even realize that the product existed.)

I'll add that (in a private club) the green committee or other responsible party should clearly and on a timely basis explain to the members any deviations from a "normal" pinning approach (about which one could argue, but forget that here) and the reason or reasons therefor.  (My opinion, of course.)
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:31:22 PM by Carl Johnson »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #69 on: Yesterday at 04:37:19 PM »

I also think that if you are seeing more pins on the edges during the week, it would be because there is less play and therefore less complaining than there would be on a weekend.


O.K. - that's an idea, Rob.  What about the idea (private club) that only the old men and ladies play during the week, and who cares about them.  The real golfers play on the weekend and that is the primary constituency we are serving.

(By the way, all the commentary about pin placement software is enlightening.  Until a couple of months ago I didn't even realize that the product existed.)

I'll add that (in a private club) the green committee or other responsible party should clearly and on a timely basis explain to the members any deviations from a "normal" pinning approach (about which one could argue, but forget that here) and the reason or reasons therefor.  (My opinion, of course.)


Ok…


First of all, I disagree completely with the premise that pins cut closer to an edge are automatically more difficult. I just don’t think that’s true at all.


Second, I think a Super at a private club who viewed the weekends as the “primary constituency we serve” should have his resume up to date and ready; he’s going to be looking for a new job soon.  It IS possible that pace of play considerations enter into pin placement for heavier weekend play, but NOT dismissing weekday players as somehow less important. No GM or Director of Golf would tolerate that for long.  And most club presidents are older, and the same is true of Boards of Directors, Greens Committees, etc.


And finally, I’ve never been a member anywhere at which daily decisions about hole locations were being made by any person or entity other than the Super and his staff.  The pro staff might be involved for tournaments, but not by any means on a daily basis.  The idea that there is that sort of “collaboration” going on daily is just not possible. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #70 on: Yesterday at 04:46:46 PM »
When "AI" shows up and a steady series of absurd pins that are unplayable (or borderline thereof) are forthcoming, it tends to generate a "negative reaction".
This may only be happening in your mind.

Erik said so, it must be true.
It's not true because I said it. I said it because it's true.

Not relevant.
It is, and you missed his point. Go figure.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #71 on: Yesterday at 06:23:39 PM »
I think for every day play you’d want 7 pin zones per green for a course that’s open 6 days a week - to eliminate the same zone being used every Tuesday, etc. 


I think it would be ok for a GOOD computer program, programmed by someone KNOWLEDGEABLE about golf and strategy, to come up with the “templates” for both pin and tee box combinations. 


I would like the program to generate 6 easy, 6 medium and 6 hard holes per day - not factoring in conditioning or weather. 


Lastly, I (naively?) think that either the Super or Ass’t Super would want to (and take great pride in?) personally use the template as a tool to lay out all 18 holes and makes changes in the field each day as needed. 


As they drive around each morning they would be doing their normal inventory of what else needs to be addressed on and around the course.  But some or all of this might not be feasible for all courses and/or clubs. 

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 07:32:11 PM »

I also think that if you are seeing more pins on the edges during the week, it would be because there is less play and therefore less complaining than there would be on a weekend.


O.K. - that's an idea, Rob.  What about the idea (private club) that only the old men and ladies play during the week, and who cares about them.  The real golfers play on the weekend and that is the primary constituency we are serving.

(By the way, all the commentary about pin placement software is enlightening.  Until a couple of months ago I didn't even realize that the product existed.)

I'll add that (in a private club) the green committee or other responsible party should clearly and on a timely basis explain to the members any deviations from a "normal" pinning approach (about which one could argue, but forget that here) and the reason or reasons therefor.  (My opinion, of course.)


Ok…


First of all, I disagree completely with the premise that pins cut closer to an edge are automatically more difficult. I just don’t think that’s true at all.


Second, I think a Super at a private club who viewed the weekends as the “primary constituency we serve” should have his resume up to date and ready; he’s going to be looking for a new job soon.  It IS possible that pace of play considerations enter into pin placement for heavier weekend play, but NOT dismissing weekday players as somehow less important. No GM or Director of Golf would tolerate that for long.  And most club presidents are older, and the same is true of Boards of Directors, Greens Committees, etc.


And finally, I’ve never been a member anywhere at which daily decisions about hole locations were being made by any person or entity other than the Super and his staff.  The pro staff might be involved for tournaments, but not by any means on a daily basis.  The idea that there is that sort of “collaboration” going on daily is just not possible.


Who dismissed weekday players as less important?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #73 on: Yesterday at 07:49:47 PM »
    Weekday play less import? Tell that to Marion, Pine Valley, Oakmont, etc.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weekday pin positions
« Reply #74 on: Yesterday at 07:51:35 PM »

I also think that if you are seeing more pins on the edges during the week, it would be because there is less play and therefore less complaining than there would be on a weekend.


O.K. - that's an idea, Rob.  What about the idea (private club) that only the old men and ladies play during the week, and who cares about them.  The real golfers play on the weekend and that is the primary constituency we are serving.

(By the way, all the commentary about pin placement software is enlightening.  Until a couple of months ago I didn't even realize that the product existed.)

I'll add that (in a private club) the green committee or other responsible party should clearly and on a timely basis explain to the members any deviations from a "normal" pinning approach (about which one could argue, but forget that here) and the reason or reasons therefor.  (My opinion, of course.)


Ok…


First of all, I disagree completely with the premise that pins cut closer to an edge are automatically more difficult. I just don’t think that’s true at all.


Second, I think a Super at a private club who viewed the weekends as the “primary constituency we serve” should have his resume up to date and ready; he’s going to be looking for a new job soon.  It IS possible that pace of play considerations enter into pin placement for heavier weekend play, but NOT dismissing weekday players as somehow less important. No GM or Director of Golf would tolerate that for long.  And most club presidents are older, and the same is true of Boards of Directors, Greens Committees, etc.


And finally, I’ve never been a member anywhere at which daily decisions about hole locations were being made by any person or entity other than the Super and his staff.  The pro staff might be involved for tournaments, but not by any means on a daily basis.  The idea that there is that sort of “collaboration” going on daily is just not possible.


Who dismissed weekday players as less important?


Carl suggested that as a possible explanation for more difficult weekday pin positions in the first paragraph of his previous post.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones