Weekday pin positions

[Carl Johnson]

Something I heard yesterday. "It is common practice for clubs to put pin positions on the edges of all greens during the week to save the greens for weekend play when the pins will be positioned normally."  This had never occurred to me.  What is your experience?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

For the past 30+ years, every club I have played regularly used a pin rotation system that segments different green areas.  A couple clubs used 6 and 7 day rotations, but that was quickly changed when enough golfers complained about the same pins on Wednesdays, ect. every week!  Quite a few clubs, that have their green slopes accurately mapped out, are generating pin positions through a computer program.

[Rob Marshall]

We use a 3 segment system. Pins aren't moved on Monday and Wed.


Definitely don't place them around the edges during the week.

[Jim Tang]

The local club I play at fairly regularly (public track) has 7 pin positions that they rotate each day. As mentioned by Robert this leads to the same hole location every Tuesday or every Saturday, which is dumb. Many guys have regular games each week on a specific day and they're getting the same hole location week after week.


The greens at this course have quite a few fingers and peninsulas where flags can be tucked. You'll get three or four of those types of hole locations during any round you play. If you're trying to speed up play this isn't a wise decision but the course doesn't seem to give it much thought.

[Matt Schoolfield]

This is a very interesting topic!

I think the obvious solution would be to have, ideally, eight pin locations on paper, but to only use the number of locations as how many days per week the pins are changed, plus one.

The key is how to remember where the pin is moved, so I suppose designing the locations to move in a clear routing is the best idea, but a star pattern should be the best at reducing wear and tear to each section of the green.

This is complicated by the fact that "championship" pin locations, based on difficulty, definitely exist. And they will likely be used more often on Sunday tournaments.

Hmm, yes, if the schedule of tournaments is predetermined, I definitely think using a computer program to output the ideal pin location each day is justified.

What a fascinating subject.

[Tom_Doak]

There are many ways to set hole locations and I always appreciate when a club has a superintendent or assistant superintendent who really thinks about it every day instead of just going with a pattern to ensure "balance".  If he's using a bunch of front hole locations on downwind holes because he needs a few front hole locations, that's no fun at all.


As I've mentioned here before, there is now a computer app for this to take the guesswork [and creativity] out of it, but someone like Walter Woods or Brian Palmer would scoff at that.


One thing I learned from Tom Mead was that if you have greens as severe as Crystal Downs, you HAVE TO USE some of the more difficult hole locations when you can -- when the greens are slower or when there aren't many rounds on the tee sheet or when the wind is blowing the correct way.  Otherwise, you'll wear out the easier hole locations on the days when you can't use the tough ones.  Which is not the same as "using the locations on the edges during the week," but I think that's probably what Carl's friend really meant.

[Simon Barrington]

Choosing Pins is probably the least understood and under-estimated process in course set-up by golfers.

It is a multi-dimensional linear programming challenge, mixed with art.
Architects do a great job of providing options, but the method and order of utilising these is a fascinating challenge

Inputs: Standard of field, receptiveness of surface, trajectory of approach, walk-off locations (traffic matters pre-cut), high points (in case for wet days), low/sheltered  points (in case for windy days), wind direction, size of field, disease, no. of days (for tournaments), no. of practice days, variety (Back/Middle/Front), variety (Left/Centre/Right), variety of difficulty (Sunday pins are not all the hardest pins), speed of green, grain, & more...

It is simply the most satisfying challenge to get right...but one gets so quickly pilloried if you get it wrong.

[Pete_Pittock]

The club I used to belong to had two courses, rotating between public and private.  I always advocated having three tee zones (Front, middle and back, with five hole location sectors. That way you could play a different 'unique' course every day of the month because of daily rotations. Alas, it was never adopted.


For the original post, it seems that practice would result in more handicap adjustments because of a presumed variance of scores on certain days.

[Craig Sweet]

The two clubs I have worked at had front, middle, back rotation and left the pin location to the hole cutter. Old Works uses an A-G system. Monday being A position. This totally sucks....same pins every Monday...etc.

[Chris Hughes]

The two clubs I have worked at had front, middle, back rotation and left the pin location to the hole cutter.

I like the sounds of this, a lot -- eyes, feet, brains -- things like that factoring in.


A while back a place I've played at a lot went to some sort of "AI" based program/algorithm/system for setting pins...


...let's just say the product purchased is woefully short on the "I" part of the equation (hope it didn't cost much).


Word is the goal was to spread out the foot traffic but the practical result was a consistent series of absurd pins that were unplayable, or borderline thereof.

[Carl Johnson]

. . . One thing I learned from Tom Mead was that if you have greens as severe as Crystal Downs, you HAVE TO USE some of the more difficult hole locations when you can -- when the greens are slower or when there aren't many rounds on the tee sheet or when the wind is blowing the correct way.  Otherwise, you'll wear out the easier hole locations on the days when you can't use the tough ones.  Which is not the same as "using the locations on the edges during the week," but I think that's probably what Carl's friend really meant.

In the context, he was talking about pins on the outer parts of the greens, regardless of conditions.  I'm not sure what the rationale for that would be as a common practice.  We didn't go that far.  I was thinking some others may have ideas.  Note that I am not talking about special conditions, whatever they may be, but rather placements on the outer circumference of the greens as a matter of course on weekdays.

[Craig Sweet]

Chris Hughes, exactly!  It spreads the use over a larger area and it allows for some human thought in picking the location for the hole. If your set up person is a golfer it will add another perspective to pin location.

[Tom_Doak]

By far the most difficult course to set up is The Loop.  For starters, they have to move all of the tee markers every day from one side of the green to different tees on the other side . . . which is why they adopted the "single post" tee marker instead of the normal two.


I worked hard there to set up the front/middle/back system to balance out the hole locations.  For example, we have two Biarritz type greens, and I didn't want you playing to the back plateau on both of them the same day . . . whether you were playing the Red course or the Black.  Likewise, there are several holes with angled greens or hole locations on a wing, and I wanted to make sure you didn't have too many similar approaches during one round.


For the same reason, we tried very hard to make every hole location viable for both the Red and Black courses, so the guy cutting the cups wouldn't have to think about which way the course was playing!

[Sean_A]

By far the most difficult course to set up is The Loop.  For starters, they have to move all of the tee markers every day from one side of the green to different tees on the other side . . . which is why they adopted the "single post" tee marker instead of the normal two.


I worked hard there to set up the front/middle/back system to balance out the hole locations.  For example, we have two Biarritz type greens, and I didn't want you playing to the back plateau on both of them the same day . . . whether you were playing the Red course or the Black.  Likewise, there are several holes with angled greens or hole locations on a wing, and I wanted to make sure you didn't have too many similar approaches during one round.


For the same reason, we tried very hard to make every hole location viable for both the Red and Black courses, so the guy cutting the cups wouldn't have to think about which way the course was playing!

Tom

While playing the course the other way around I appreciated the issue with tees and hole locations. I don’t believe most folks grasp the issues involved a reversible course. So many folks ignore the 36 holes in one course aspect of the design. It’s a shame that so many think about courses in terms of rankings.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Ware and tear and flexibility.
Daily footfall.
Pin in a low spot when a bunch of rain is due?? No.
Pin on a high spot when strong winds are forecast?? No.
And then there’s the faster the greenspeed the less available hole positions and vice versa debate.
Atb

[David Federman]

Great topic and discussion.  Aren't hole positions and tee placements related? Do the computer programs related to pin positions take into consideration tee positions and vice-versa?

[Tim Martin]

Great topic and discussion.  Aren't hole positions and tee placements related? Do the computer programs related to pin positions take into consideration tee positions and vice-versa?

David-I don’t know if there is an algorithm in place for tee positions but they should be staggered/changed not unlike hole positions. There should be consideration given for wind direction with both long and short holes not only for playability and place of play but also to stagger foot traffic. If prevailing winds are reversed the tees can and should be be moved accordingly.

[Simon Barrington]

Great topic and discussion.  Aren't hole positions and tee placements related? Do the computer programs related to pin positions take into consideration tee positions and vice-versa?

If greens are long then this may be a factor that an alogorithm or manual selection will have to take into consideration.
Why? The largely inflexible WHS prescribes that the measured course should be in aggregate within 100 yards of the measured course used for rating. This applies even to General Play cards.
An unintended consequence of this is excessive wear (due to lack of rotation) and unused (but maintained) sections on teeing grounds.

[Rob Marshall]

Great topic and discussion.  Aren't hole positions and tee placements related? Do the computer programs related to pin positions take into consideration tee positions and vice-versa?

David-I don’t know if there is an algorithm in place for tee positions but they should be staggered/changed not unlike hole positions. There should be consideration given for wind direction with both long and short holes not only for playability and place of play but also to stagger foot traffic. If prevailing winds are reversed the tees can and should be be moved accordingly.

Agreed, but the reality is that at most courses the guy moving the tees doesn't play golf and has no idea where the pins are being set. I think at my club the super doesn't have the time to teach a crew member to think the way golfers think or take wind into consideration.

[Tim Martin]

Great topic and discussion.  Aren't hole positions and tee placements related? Do the computer programs related to pin positions take into consideration tee positions and vice-versa?

David-I don’t know if there is an algorithm in place for tee positions but they should be staggered/changed not unlike hole positions. There should be consideration given for wind direction with both long and short holes not only for playability and place of play but also to stagger foot traffic. If prevailing winds are reversed the tees can and should be be moved accordingly.

Agreed, but the reality is that at most courses the guy moving the tees doesn't play golf and has no idea where the pins are being set. I think at my club the super doesn't have the time to teach a crew member to think the way golfers think or take wind into consideration.

Could be easily rectified with a short tutorial from the super as there isn’t that much involved. I don’t think it’s fair to say that “at most courses the guy moving the tees doesn’t play golf” as you would have no way to quantify your statement.

[Rob Marshall]

Great topic and discussion.  Aren't hole positions and tee placements related? Do the computer programs related to pin positions take into consideration tee positions and vice-versa?

David-I don’t know if there is an algorithm in place for tee positions but they should be staggered/changed not unlike hole positions. There should be consideration given for wind direction with both long and short holes not only for playability and place of play but also to stagger foot traffic. If prevailing winds are reversed the tees can and should be be moved accordingly.

Agreed, but the reality is that at most courses the guy moving the tees doesn't play golf and has no idea where the pins are being set. I think at my club the super doesn't have the time to teach a crew member to think the way golfers think or take wind into consideration.

Could be easily rectified with a short tutorial from the super as there isn’t that much involved. I don’t think it’s fair to say that “at most courses the guy moving the tees doesn’t play golf” as you would have no way to quantify your statement.

You're right Tim. I should have said "my course" not most. I know for a fact there. I've talked to my super about the subject and he rolls his eyes. You can't possibly play golf and put a pin in the side of a slope so that the ball rolls back to your feet putt after putt or the tee is placed half a yard from rough at the back of the tee box. Doesn't happen a lot but it happens. He can barely find guys to work let alone ones that have an understanding of how golf is played.

[Joe Hancock]

This seems like a thing at a low percentage of golf courses. For a much higher percentage, the randomness and “pushing the envelope” of daily hole positions is a significant contribution towards the fun and architectural makeup of any given day. To think a computer is needed to help the course setup on the majority of golf courses would be a sales job, IMO.

[Thomas Dai]

Amusing to watch hole positions being set for elite am and elite pro tournaments.
Seems like dozens of ‘officials’ usually in matching outfits on the green, rolling balls, standing chatting and scratching their chins watching while one bloke uses the hole cutter. And then there’s the supervision of trimming the hole edge with the special scissors and the whitening of the hole itself.
See - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P-JVnlB7Onk&pp=ygUbY3JpYmJpbnMgaG9sZSBpbiB0aGUgZ3JvdW5k
Of course once upon a time the courses greenkeeper or one of his staff would decide where to cut the hole and it would be in the same position for the whole tournament.
Oh well, there’s progress for you.
 
Atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Something I heard yesterday. "It is common practice for clubs to put pin positions on the edges of all greens during the week to save the greens for weekend play when the pins will be positioned normally."  This had never occurred to me.  What is your experience?

I've seen it in Texas in summer heat.  Additionally, if the cart path is to the right, they put the pin somewhere near the right edge, so many players won't have to walk too far into the green.  It probably doesn't work as well on the left side of most greens with paths left.

Great topic and discussion.  Aren't hole positions and tee placements related? Do the computer programs related to pin positions take into consideration tee positions and vice-versa?

Many pros like the idea of "pin back, tee up" to keep the distance near the recorded distance for handicap reasons.  They seem to feel pretty strongly about it.  I have designed a few holes with 100 yard long tees and greens, hoping to vary the hole length by over 100 yards when desired......no one seems to have ever desired it.


Most courses will have a pin rotation system like a tic tac toe board (usually 2 x 3 for six pin locations, with a few actual pin areas in each basic location.)  Some courses with bigger greens could do a full tic tac toe boards of 3 x 3).  I have also seen one with a center and four exterior areas (FL, FR, BL, BR).  As mentioned, six pin locations can be problematic if your course is closed on Mondays.

[Chris Hughes]

Amusing to watch hole positions being set for elite am and elite pro tournaments.
Seems like dozens of ‘officials’ usually in matching outfits on the green, rolling balls, standing chatting and scratching their chins watching while one bloke uses the hole cutter. And then there’s the supervision of trimming the hole edge with the special scissors and the whitening of the hole itself.
 
Atb

Imagine how crazy that dance must have been at Kingston Heath & Victoria in November...!!!