Ranking my favorite holes at Pine Valley from 1-18

[archie_struthers]

First off    I love the place . It has been the primary reason for my passion for golf club architecture and a myriad of wonderful memories , co-workers and great friends for the last 50 years. Not to discount my start at Woodcrest CC, but my time at the "Valley" galvanized my love for the game.


So , before my memory fades I thought I would rank the holes , not by difficulty but by affinity!  For all of those who have spent any time there this list could likely swap my #18 th favorite, note "favorite" with their number 1.  Such is the greatness of the Crump design (along with his fellows) Ok, let's have at it!


         1    yep number one is my favorite, at least today.  It sets the bar for the whole day. Be fearless and challenge the corner on
                     the opening tee shot , don't want a long shot to this green

 


        4      would have been my top choice if not for the "new" bunkers (25 years ago)  that changed the angle of the tee shot for
                     many!  Even so, too many great things going on here particularly the second shot


       16     just so pretty walking down to the green with water everywhere!   also the scene of my favorite Ernie Ransome moment


       2       Is it the finest green out here , probably    Giant breaks in front and pernicious as hell in the back




      11     best cut-thru for caddies here and even on the hottest days there was a breeze ,  subtle genius in the design here


       
       9       the new addition of the skyline green (left)  made this one move up on the list....great two shotter


      13     gotta stripe the tee shot right of center and then the splendor of the second shot opens to the eye 
       
     
      5        one of the best par threes on the planet , so it has to get some respect. Green demands your full attention


     
      15     it is so hard to build a fortress par five, particularly now that distance is out of control ..... still valid today as a three                                  shot hole....green is so difficult that many a great round ends here
       
       8      how could I wait so long....in Crump Cup qualifier might be the scariest par


       18    awesome finishing hole where despite it's difficulty you can make a birdie (or double)   



       7       Hell's Half Acre is the defining feature here , the longest hole on a course where distance isn't the most important skill


       
       3        two disparate sections to this downhill par three , so get your yardage right
 
       
        6        bite off as much as you like on this  "Cape"  hole but maybe a three wood a better option with the new tee, miss Alec
                       Ewing to this day! 



       
       17       the new tee a great add on , before that the easiest hole on the course , in match play a pivotal hole in high level                                 matches


       10        there is another bunker lurking left on this hole that is unmentionable too   




        14        if it's even a little windy never wanted to hit first here






        12        beautiful little par four with a green that slopes away , have to hit your tee shot long and right to get an easy angle                 
   






   post script            Merry Christmas to all you who listen to my PVGC rants...bless you all
                              It will be fifty (50) years this summer that Tommy Elder (RIP)  hired me to caddie there. Loved that guy!                                           and to Charley Raudenbush GM-pro emeritus thank you too!








































   






         

[Tommy Williamsen]

I’ll try my hand at this. I probably have played a dozen or so rounds at PV. The order isn’t absolute, but it’s close.

#1 lets you know what the next 17 holes will be like.

#2 The first time I played and walked from the first green to the second tee, I didn’t want to hit my tee shot. I just wanted to stare at the hole. I wished I was a painter. I thought it was the most beautiful inland hole I ever saw. Then, when I played it and the marvelous green, I thought it was one of the best mid-length holes on the planet.

#3 This hole is special because my son left his tee ball on the lip. The pin was in the middle, and my 16-year-old son hit his four iron to the right side of the green and watched as the ball began to roll toward the hole. We thought it was going in.

#10 is the first hole I played at PV. The course was a bit crowded, and the caddie master put us off on the back nine. I pulled out an eight iron, watched my ball hit the green, and trundle down to the devil’s Ahole. It pulled up short. I never was short again.

#17 This is a fun short par four that is a chance for a birdie before tackling the tough 18^th hole.

#8 I’m a sucker for a short par four, and this is one of the best. I like the left green better.

#6 I love that this hole tempts you to cut the corner but dooms most who try it.

#4 Hitting the green from a downhill lie is tricky, but it is one of the few holes that will accept a running shot.

#15 I have never played this hole well. It is just too harsh a par five more mortals. It is long, uphill, and gets narrower the closer you get to the green.

#5 I took a few plays before I decided just to hit my tee ball to the front left corner of the green and try to make three from there. It’s a scary shot. I had seen the travails of Gene Littler and never wanted any part of missing the green to the right.

#7 I am pretty straight off the tee, and that is essential at seven. If I can’t play 15 well, I do play this one rather well: drive, second shot over Hell’s half acre, and a short iron to the green.

#14 is another hole where the beauty takes your breath away. It isn’t the most difficult hole on the course, but you can’t wait to get there. For some reason, though, I tend to come up short on the green, just barely.

#13 is the most challenging hole on the course for me. I just don’t hit it long enough to give me a good chance of making four.

#12 Feels like a less intimidating mate to #13.

#9 is one of the lesser-known holes, but it is good, especially to the left green.

#16 Like Archie, I love the beauty of this hole. After 15, it feels like a reprieve.

#18 Boy, is this a challenging finishing hole. I have been either in the front bunkers or over the green. Pulling the correct club baffled me.

#11 might be my least favorite hole. It isn’t as inspiring as the other 17.

[Tom_Doak]

Archie:


Yours is an interesting list.  I've often said that I found it funny that the holes which never got a mention as being one of Pine Valley's best would be icons if they were at another course, and my main examples were the 4th and 16th.


I would probably rank the 12th at the bottom, as you did, but also the 15th.  I agree that it's tough as nails but it has always seemed to me that if you don't get yourself in good position with your first two shots you are just doomed to make 6 or 7.  And I was never good enough to get where I needed to be in two!

[MCirba]

When I tell people that (despite the over-manicured sandy areas & the need to remove more trees in key areas, IMO) Pine Valley is the greatest course in the United States and probably the world, I say that it's because it has 17 great holes and 1 really good hole and people differ on which is the really good hole.


The fact that this list could be so variable among different people and depending on the day of the week makes that pretty clear. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Love both of the replies so figure I'm all in on this one!  Tommy W some really good stuff , as I contemplated having 1,2,4 and 5 topping the chart. Like you given that it is a FAVORITE hole list  and not all architecturally based some memories guide me also. #2, despite the obvious qualities , has so many stories for me.   


My favorite might be the Saturday circa 1978 when looping for local legends John Ott, Joe Holman, Mr Ransome and Warner Shelly. Dr. Laurie Dyson another local had a home just right of the second hole driving zone.  He was famous for his early work using lithium carbonate to treat mental illness.  I was looping with "Broadway Joe" who was irreverent and at times yes schizophrenic.  After the tee shots Mr Shelly drove his three wheeled cart to the right and "Doc" Dyson appeared in it seconds later in full scrubs.   John Ott said grab him Archie and I put Broadway in a full nelson.  He screamed  and yelled as "Doc" approached with a horse needle of epic proportions.  "Doc" couldn't take it anymore and broke out in a fit of laughter as did all the the rest of us. Joe never forgave me for betraying him 


Tom Doak ...thanks as always for hanging in the tree house.  Think of those bunkers on the top of the hill on #4 . Beautifully and seamlessly integrated into the landscape and I truly hate them . Changed that great tee shot for many players like me !  Closest hole to a ten I've ever played without them

Just saw Mike's reply ...you got it, more importantly you get it!

[Steven Wade]

I know this has nothing to do with the holes, but I had a 100th anniversary polo that I recently had made into a head cover because I like this logo so much. Hopefully being a logo nerd is allowed here.

[mike_malone]

Archie,


Too tough for me to do so I will try three groups from most loved to liked a lot. They are listed by first to play.


 2 the elevation and bunker set plus a great green


4 Love up and over and angled tee shot to an open green that allows a running shot to a massive green.


6 The tremendous bunker and angled tee shot is awesome and the smaller green with slope.


8 Two tiny greens!!


13. Love these par fours that have up and over tee shots.


16 Another great tee shot to an awesome green.




Tier two


3 Easier to hit the green then it seems. Nice angle to the green.


5 Pretty straightforward driver or three wood to a par three!


9 Another two green option that keeps my interest


11. Like the center line bunker. Like hole better than most.


12. Classic “sand cape”.


15. Relentless par 5 with challenging green at the end.


17 Very attractive tight uphill approach






Tier three


1 straightforward


7 prefer angles versus the right in front hell’s half acre. Bunker surrounding the green not my favorite either


10. Just hit the wedge in the center of the green.


14 Just hit the iron in the middle of the green.


18. Tough on a 15 plus 75 year old to do more than layup.

[archie_struthers]

 


Boom 💥.   Mayday always love your input !   Think 🤔 you and TEP are kindred spirits but you have more free cash 💰  haha


Love uphill tee shots.  Just love them . Most don’t appreciate #11 as much as us but it really grows on you. I caddied for Tom Watson once and he asked if he could hit driver in the throat. When he hit it thought 💭 it was too deep and the trees on the left would leave him locked up.  Somehow God was looking out for me and it kicked straight off a right to left slope.  He also loved to hit driver on #8 as did Jay Sigel.    Me too so three great players agree 

[Michael Felton]

I played three rounds there 26 years ago and remember it like it was yesterday. I started to try to rank the holes and did so at least at first by figuring I'd pick the holes that were in the better half of them. Then I went through the holes in my head and pretty much all of them I thought, well yeah that has to be in the top half, so I gave up. So, putting them in hole order when I really can't differentiate them:


8 based on the left green - it's such a short hole that you look at the card and think great opportunity - then you stand in the fairway with your ball below your feet aiming at a green that's about 4 yards wide and your heart rate spikes
13 the second shot here is just so good. All that acreage out to the right and the end of the world left. I just can't get myself to hit it at the green
1 stand on the tee and it feels like you've got some room, but then you get a bit safe with it and you've got 6 iron into a green that gets more and more punishing the further up it you go. Wouldn't be surprised if this green is responsible for the most 3 putts when the flag is at the back of it.
5 here only God can make a 3 - only hole I didn't make par on in my three rounds. (I got one on 13 holing a 25 foot putt that broke 10 feet).
7 probably the most famous hole here I would think - maybe along with 10 - both due to bunkers. I made birdie here my first time, which definitely helps
10 shortish par 3 with the end of your round sitting right there in front of your face. Don't miss
2 this green is crazy and I don't think I've ever seen one like it anywhere else. It's a relatively short hole - iron and wedge from where I played it, but that second shot is tough and if you leave it above the hole, you're in for a treat
3 I love Ran's comment on this one - the clover leaf shaped green is stunning and the ball moves so much once it's on the ground. It's fairly playable though and I got to see the Redan style movement of the ball more here than I ever have on Redans and I played this hole 3 times and Redans dozens of times.
6 Temptation rears its ugly head. How do you keep it left enough? I can't do it. Cost me a 7 my first go because I hit it a bit too far right and spent 3 shots getting it back in play.
17 awesome short par 4. Slight birdie opportunity if you hit good shots
4 I really enjoyed the width here and watching a ball run down the hill onto the green is great
14 This is my least favorite par 3 of the bunch, but it's still a great hole with so much trouble around.
15 My dad likes to say that he reduced this hole to three 5 woods and a 7 iron (and then holed a 40 foot putt for a par after the caddie told him to hit his putt like the hole was 6 feet away and at right angles to the hole). My only criticism of this hole is it's a little bit one dimensional. Hit it far and straight, rinse, repeat. Green area is great though.
16 I really like the way on this one you can take on the carry and then you hit parallel to the water, or you play it safe and now the water is behind the flag. Very challenging approach shot - nowhere near as hard as 13, but similar concept.
18 Tough finishing hole with what I remember as being a little narrow for the drive (relatively speaking), but maybe that's because I just hit it not where I meant to. The bunkers to the right of the green have some spots where you REALLY don't want to go. 4, 14, 15, 16 and 18 are pretty similar level to my mind
9 9, 12 and 11 are three holes that I feel like I've played similar to them elsewhere. I think each of them would be a stand out hole on 99% of the courses around the world, but they don't quite stand out here. 9 and 11 are both hit it in the fairway and hit it on the green and get out of there.
12 I don't love this hole quite as much as most of the others - it's still very well put together and a really good hole. It doesn't suit my eye that much though and I'm probably being overly harsh as a result
11 Basically what I said about 9 - this is the one hole that I would consider less memorable than the others - I don't really remember it as well.

[Jim Hoak]

Not to distract from the rankings, but I think that #13 is the single best golf hole in the whole world!

[Jim_Coleman]

    I assume this isn’t a hard question, but I’ll throw it out for those too young to know.
   I think the first ranking by a national publication was Dan Jenkins’ ‘60’s article in Sports Illustrated listing the best 18 holes in America. He did it by where the holes fell on each course - the best first hole, second hole, etc.
   Two questions- 1) which was PV’s hole, and 2) which course had 2 holes and which holes were they?

[Charlie Goerges]

    I assume this isn’t a hard question, but I’ll throw it out for those too young to know.
   I think the first ranking by a national publication was Dan Jenkins’ ‘60’s article in Sports Illustrated listing the best 18 holes in America. He did it by where the holes fell on each course - the best first hole, second hole, etc.
   Two questions- 1) which was PV’s hole, and 2) which course had 2 holes and which holes were they?

Pine Valley #7 and Merion had #1 and #11. I can post the articles if people want.

[MCirba]

Drats...Charlie beat me to Jim's question!      


That Jenkins ranking was made into a board game that my parents got me for Christmas back in the early 1970s.   Some debatable picks in there (i.e. the 9th at Champions) and it was top-heavy on tournament courses but it was a really good introduction to architecture for a young teen just getting into the game.


Charlie, I'd love to see them...wondering perhaps on a new thread to not divert too far from Archie's "design intent" here?  Thanks! 

[Michael Felton]

    I assume this isn’t a hard question, but I’ll throw it out for those too young to know.
   I think the first ranking by a national publication was Dan Jenkins’ ‘60’s article in Sports Illustrated listing the best 18 holes in America. He did it by where the holes fell on each course - the best first hole, second hole, etc.
   Two questions- 1) which was PV’s hole, and 2) which course had 2 holes and which holes were they?

I have a book of Dan Jenkins' stuff. He had in it a few "best of" lists. Best short par 4 was 8 at Pine Valley. He said something along the lines of "a short par 4 where you hit a wedge from a sloping lie to a green about the size of a dinner plate. Actually, I exaggerate. It's more the size of an ashtray"

[Bill Crane]

#  13 - BEST  One of best holes and par 4s in the world.  Simply awesome and so strategic in every way.   Cape Green is amazing.   The trees at the end of the fairway have a big effect on drive and approach shot.  Dramatic tee shot.
 
#12 - LEAST  Interesting hole on the course.  But still great.
Maybe 14 (drop shot par 3 over pond) is not as good as the other 15 holes not already mentioned (second least interesting).
 
But, the remaining 15 holes are EXCELLENT and one could only argue about where they are in relation to each other.
Every hole has so much bold strategy.

At the same time the subtle details are so pervasive and effective that even when there isn’t a big dramatic feature the subtle details have a huge cumulative effect.    Angles, visual details, uneven stances etc. etc.

[Dan Boerger]

A repeating symphony of great hole after great hole.


What also stands out to me is that it's incredibly penal at times without any contrived trickery.

[archie_struthers]

 


Ok guys really loving the input but not ranking them architecturally though of course that's part of the process ...gimme your favorites !  Kind of like when I turned left to the ocean at Portrush...5 isn't the best hole but it immediately became my favorite.

[Scott Warren]

Okay, Archie’s thread, Archie’s rules. Favourites as instructed, first to last.

TBH architecturally I’d probably have the same order.

13, 8, 5, 2, 18, 10, 16, 6, 4, 1, 11, 7, 3, 17, 15, 9, 12, 14

[archie_struthers]

 


Thanks Scott and Merry Christmas to a gentleman ...appreciate the courtesy

[mike_malone]

Okay, Archie’s thread, Archie’s rules. Favourites as instructed, first to last.

TBH architecturally I’d probably have the same order.

13, 8, 5, 2, 18, 10, 16, 6, 4, 1, 11, 7, 3, 17, 15, 9, 12, 14

The friend speaks my mind.

[archie_struthers]

 


So hard for par threes to be "best designed" on a course so not unusual for them to be ranked in the bottom tier. PV  might be a little different in that #5 is so good and difficult to boot, a lot like Calamity at Portrush.  . Uber impressed by the Williamson and Felton posts. The memory twenty six years later is testimony to both the player and the course.


Tommy mentioned that he accepted the need to miss it left on five. Having played it when there were trees all over the right side of the hole, along with multiple bunkers amidst them , it certainly behooved this strategy. Even if you hit it in the left green side bunker you had a fighting chance at par if you caught a lie.


For my purposes I only view the 8th hole with the left green , it's just so superior to the alternate. It's very existence was solely to  alleviate too much play on the hole in times of high stress.  That left green on eight can't be much more than 1800-2000 square feet. But of course they don't play as many rounds as they did in the 70's and 80's  so I'm not sure they would have built it today. I guess one of the most famous stories about eight is that the great amateur from Chicago,  Joel Hirsch , made 16 pars in a Crump Qualifier but shot 81.  He made an eleven from 85 yards out .


I never liked the 14th hole , and it's almost totally because I could never figure out which way the wind was blowing.Nobody else can either .  Any caddie who isn't scared to suggest a playing yardage here on a windy day doesn't give a shit   


Could not make fourteen my least favorite though because of one  Rocky Carbone. He once famously told a golfer who had launched a club into the gronkel in front of the tee..."you better throw a provisional, I don't know if we can find that one"

[Tim_Weiman]

Archie,


Great thread. Honestly, I don’t think I could rank all eighteen holes, but I can say that #13 is my favorite.


That said, as I have written here before, the 16th may be my favorite golf experience. It was 1985 on the final day of the Walker Cup and I was following Bob Lewis.


When he arrived at his tee shot, he asked his caddy for the yardage and was promptly told “185”.


Not satisfied, Lewis asked his caddy: “is it 185 or 185 and 1/2?”.


The caddy assured him it was 185.


Still not satisfied, Lewis asked what his yardage was in the morning round and the caddy again said “185”.


At that point, the caddy grabbed the 4 iron, the club Lewis played in the morning round.


But Lewis took charge telling his caddy: “put that back in the bag. I don’t want it on your conscience if we lose the Walker Cup”.


Lewis then took his 5 iron and hit his shot to about 3 feet closing out his match and, if I remember correctly securing the Cup for the American team.


Several years later I ran into Lewis at the Canterbury Cup in Cleveland and recalled the experience for him. Lewis remarked: “water behind and to the right…oh my God, you were there,”.


Sadly, Bob passed away far too young.

[Tim_Weiman]

Archie,


Great thread. Honestly, I don’t think I could rank all eighteen holes, but I can say that #13 is my favorite.


That said, as I have written here before, the 16th may be my favorite golf experience. It was 1985 on the final day of the Walker Cup and I was following Bob Lewis.


When he arrived at his tee shot, he asked his caddy for the yardage and was promptly told “185”.


Not satisfied, Lewis asked his caddy: “is it 185 or 185 and 1/2?”.


The caddy assured him it was 185.


Still not satisfied, Lewis asked what his yardage was in the morning round and the caddy again said “185”.


At that point, the caddy grabbed the 4 iron, the club Lewis played in the morning round.


But Lewis took charge telling his caddy: “put that back in the bag. I don’t want it on your conscience if we lose the Walker Cup”.


Lewis then took his 5 iron and hit his shot to about 3 feet closing out his match and, if I remember correctly securing the Cup for the American team.


Several years later I ran into Lewis at the Canterbury Cup in Cleveland and recalled the experience for him. Lewis remarked: “water behind and to the right…oh my God, you were there,”.


Sadly, Bob passed away far too young.


Tim

[archie_struthers]

 


Tim that’s such a great memory !  Thanks so much for sharing ..the Walker Cup in 1985 was my last week on the job at PVGC.  Hated to go but it was time . Right after that I moved my tack to Ocean City  and left the golf business . But I got dragged back in 😆




So that week the Americans were highly favored and you would have thought they would win pretty easily . Jay Sigel was the Captain and the team was loaded but the Euros were really tough led by a young Peter Baker and the dour young Scot Colin Montgomery .  I wished so much to be out there caddying for the Americans but had moved on ! 




Lewis prompted another PV story due to his great play  He  shot 64 in the Crump Qualifier corca 1980 and that brings on a memorable day





Bators’ Revenge ! Soon

[archie_struthers]

 


Sitting in the airport in Chi-town can’t wait to get back to the Jersey Shore. Might be our last Friday game today if the plane gets us back toPhilly on-time🙏


Looping for Ernie Ransome , the major domo of PVGC.   He’s playing the semi-final of the summer long knock out match of all the Philly area golfers and locals .  Just a two some but he’s playing Chris Blair who just came in runner up in the Crump the previous year . Ransome was a sneaky good player , having been a stand out athlete at Princeton,  and as stated Blair could play .


It’s a Sunday early loop, very unusual for me as typically I would be off but had inherited the job caddying for Mr Ransome when Frank Barrett became the new caddie master. 


So off they went at a furious pace , as foursome after foursome let us play thru . Blair commented it was akin to the Red Sea parting as they moved aside !


Great match as Ransome was really playing well and an upset a real possibility . All square going  to 16!
Two good drives but Blair was 40 yards further down the fairway maybe 🤔 150 max out .  Ernie (forgive the familiarity) hit his trusty baffled 7 wood to a tough front left pin , maybe fifteen feet for birdie . Blair might have been feeling a little heat playing the boss came over the top and pulled his second dead left . It scooted thru the bunker ran over an unusually denuded lip and miraculously stopped inches from the hole 🕳️.   


Well the match ended Blair plus one as both players parred 17 and 18 . After courtesies were extended I got paid and down the shore go I . Mr Ransome never said a word but I knew he was steaming . Tuesday afternoon when  returned to work we got to the 16th hole and as I looked at the left bunker and just couldn’t help but laugh.  A gnarly lip and some nasty grass had invaded the bunker , there would be no fluky birdies there anymore !