Gen Z and golf

[Niall C]

“In previous generations golf has been able to maintain a rules culture based on the notion that golf- like life- is not always fair. However evolutionary neuroscience has shown that humans (like most animals) are hardwired to detect when the environment is unfairly slanted against them – a core survival instinct. Generation Z are the first generation that will not simply accept and put up with a culture that tells them to ‘suck it up’. Any sport/leisure pastime that fails to adapt to this sea change in human culture will struggle to grow or even maintain participation levels amongst this next wave of potential players”

- Stephen Smith, Chief Neuroscientist at PSY enz/SPL

Thoughts ?



Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

I just KNEW it was silly-season…
 

[Ian Andrew]

Z Dad deleted his post.

[John Handley]

Golf won versus many generations or whatever we call them every 5-10 years now. If Gen Z doesn't like golf, there will be other things they can do.


I'll put my money on golf surviving and thriving.

[Matt Schoolfield]

My only thought is that whenever someone in an older generation starts explaining some perceived shortcoming of younger generations, I immediately know that I don't want to be in the conversation anymore.

Here is a relevant article about the same researcher: ‘If The Values Of Your Sport Do Not Match The Core Values Of A New Generation, It Will Very Quickly Wither And Die’ – Why Golf’s Gen Z Culture Clash Could Have Serious Ramifications For The Game’s Future: An expert in psychology has warned that golf’s rule book could be a barrier to participation for the next generation of players and advised a wider review on the sport’s regulations

Relevant parallel quote:

While he’s not able to put his finger on why Gen Z think and feel as they do, Stephen believes this mindset shift is something the golf industry should absolutely be sitting up and taking notice of.

“In previous generations, because of cultural factors which have overridden environmental ones, we’ve very much had the Victorian ‘life is unfair, live with it, suck it up’ attitude. Golf has reflected that. We haven’t had to change rules as a result and people have accepted that golf is inherently unfair.

“The golf industry has been able to get away with it, because for whatever reason, previous generations have gone ‘okay, that’s fine, we accept that’.

“But Gen Z isn’t like that. In the focus group, people kept saying that playing from divots in the fairway was an ‘unnecessary unfairness’. Why would they play a game where the person in front of them had a perfect lie, but they’ve hit it to the same spot and been denied that because someone didn’t repair a divot? That’s the prevailing feeling.

Here's why this article is not even worth reading:

PSYenz, the specialist neuroscience division of SPL, has run a number of focus groups off the back of the feedback, speaking to both Gen Z golfers and non-golfers about the specific issue of balls finding divots and the rules more generally.

The focus groups were comprised of 21 golfers - 19 male and two female – and 28 non-golfers. Everyone who took part believed the fairway divot rule was inherently unfair.

There is nothing wrong with doing surveys (focus groups less so) as part of research, but my god, if you're writing a story, please don't interview a few dozen players and then start discussing the ramifications of their views on literally millions of other people as though it were scientific. Their first survey was in 2010, so they don't even have historical precedent to know if it's associated with youth more that a specific generation.

Again, I'm very happy about someone being out there doing the work. I'm astounded at the weight these focus groups are being given in the article.

[John Handley]

I think it's funny that they did all this research to determine that having your ball in a divot is unfair!  I could have told them that in 2 seconds!      Striping one down the middle 280 only to have your ball in a divot.  Ha ha.  Yeah it sucks.  But, you can learn to hit the shot and become a player while accepting a little adversity in your life or guess what......move your fucking ball.  You're not on the PGA Tour and unless you have a bet or a serious match going on, who cares.  Do what makes you happy. 

[Simon Barrington]

I just KNEW it was silly-season…
 

Initial thought was that when GCA meets AI to generate discussions like this, we ought to know we are in trouble...

[Niall C]

My only thought is that whenever someone in an older generation starts explaining some perceived shortcoming of younger generations, I immediately know that I don't want to be in the conversation anymore.

Is this an example of Gen Z throwing their toys out the pram 


Niall

[Ben Malach]

Niall:


Not to speak for Matt, but he is older Millennial.


This whole thread is a bunch of old men shouting at clouds. It's honestly embarrassing but expected at that's what happens like clock work. When a new cohort begins to traverse into adulthood. I could pull up articles dating back to the dawn of print about how the new generation is destroying culture.


As someone in the middle of the millennial cohort and has worked with some very bright young millennials and Gen Z's. We are going to be okay. As a matter of fact, I am currently in a relationship with one. She is smart, cares about history (she dressed as '20's golfer for Halloween this year.). She knows and appreciates architecture as the way she hooked me was by talking about the work of Mackenzie as Passatiempo at a dive bar. She plays quickly and enjoys no music on the course.


My example proves my point we can't take a fist full of examples and tag a generation with them.


If we want to talk about how they are going to change the game. I personally see a rise in unaffiliated golf clubs. Full of young avid golfers that want to share the game with like minded peers. They might be social, they might be competitive but they probably won't have a home club . As the economics of that situation make it untenable as this generation is going to have to be transient and dislocated to find work. That's why they will have clubs but they won't be traditional ones.


Before people post things like this remember what they said about the Me generation and Gen X. Things change it's not that scary.

[Matt Schoolfield]

My only thought is that whenever someone in an older generation starts explaining some perceived shortcoming of younger generations, I immediately know that I don't want to be in the conversation anymore.

Is this an example of Gen Z throwing their toys out the pram 

No, no. It's just easy to recognize the person focused on the speck of sawdust in their neighbors eye...

[Peter Sayegh]

My only thought is that whenever someone in an older generation starts explaining some perceived shortcoming of younger generations, I immediately know that I don't want to be in the conversation anymore.

Yet you felt compelled to reply?

they don't even have historical president...

Sorry Matt. Gotta call you on that-especially since you edited the post at least once.

I have no idea what "Gen" classification I fall into but I KNOW my dad was hardier than me and his dad hardier than him and that's fine...since I know (hope) those younger than me will come to the same realization.

Getting back to golf, I wonder if the term "rub o' the green" will die before I do.

[Ira Fishman]

My only thought is that whenever someone in an older generation starts explaining some perceived shortcoming of younger generations, I immediately know that I don't want to be in the conversation anymore.

Yet you felt compelled to reply?

they don't even have historical president...

Sorry Matt. Gotta call you on that-especially since you edited the post at least once.

I have no idea what "Gen" classification I fall into but I KNOW my dad was hardier than me and his dad hardier than him and that's fine...since I know (hope) those younger than me will come to the same realization.

Getting back to golf, I wonder if the term "rub o' the green" will die before I do.

Hilarious. Our kids feel compelled to respond when we try to explain something to them. But they do know how to spell. And I am not half the man of my Father or Grandfather.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Yet you felt compelled to reply?

Yes, I felt compelled to reply with a high-effort post, because I actually find the work that Stephen Smith (et al.) is doing interesting and appreciated it. However, I find the tone of the related article and the way the author seems to speak about the very small study to be severely overemphasizing the findings, which would perpetuate hyperbolic blurbs exactly like the one we find here.

Sorry Matt. Gotta call you on that-especially since you edited the post at least once.

Hilarious. Our kids feel compelled to respond when we try to explain something to them. But they do know how to spell. And I am not half the man of my Father or Grandfather.

I'm glad the focus of all the effort I put forward here has led the discussion toward the topic of grammar. 

I have no idea what "Gen" classification I fall into but I KNOW my dad was hardier than me and his dad hardier than him and that's fine...since I know (hope) those younger than me will come to the same realization.

I can't speak for your family, nor do I want to. However, I think it's important for people to try to have some perspective when it comes to issues heavily laden with nostalgia. It's easy to see the greatest deeds of the elders life because it's been laid out before you, especially since their worst moments are rarely repeated. It's impossible to see the greatest deeds of youth because they haven't lived through them yet, you only see them fumbling while they learn.

When it comes to pointing out the flaws in other generations, just be careful you aren't criticizing a group doing their best in a difficult period.

[Ira Fishman]

Matt,


What is your definition of a difficult period? My grandparents came to the US during the Russian Revolutions. My Father grew up “dirt poor” to the point where he could not go to Harvard Law because he could not afford the tuition. I grew up in Skokie, Illinois where there were over 1500 Holocaust Survivors. As I stated, I am not half the man of my Grandfather or Father. I have the privilege of playing some wonderful courses because of what they did for me. Moreover, they could spell.


Ira

[Matt Schoolfield]

Ira, we are both very blessed. I'm thankful for that. My point is only that when I look out at the world that Gen Z is facing, I'm glad I was born when I was. To get into the details would divert this thread too far into the realm of economics and infrastructure policy when it's supposed to be about golf. Suffice it to say, many assume that the world they grew up in still persists, though it is always changing. This can mean many simply do not know about the novel problems that different generations face (especially when they are zero-sum). The amount of minutia to keep up with this type of niche demographic experience is not something a reasonable person can follow.

I try to think a lot about these issues. I hope that is pretty obvious from my more strident contributions to this forum.

I have never been good at spelling.

[Brian Finn]

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

[Ira Fishman]

Brian,


Hilarious.


Ira

[Ben Malach]

Ira Et Al:

I think it's important to remind some of you of the basic logical fallacy of the Ad hominem attack

Ad hominem means “against the man,” and this type of fallacy is sometimes called name calling or the personal attack fallacy. An ad hominem fallacy occurs when someone attacks the person instead of attacking his or her argument. This approach can act as a method of discrediting an opponent or simply deflecting or avoiding the actual topic of discussion.

This board is based upon open and honest discussion. If you have to depend on logical fallacies maybe you should re think your lines of argument.

[Chris Hughes]

Complete and utter BS.  Heard the same nonsense a decade ago, who remember Hack Golf (Mark King take a bow), 15" holes, etc.


Call their bluff.


Don't like it, take a hike...






Note:  If anyone has the hammer right now it's the establishment -- golf should double-down on "culture" right now!!

[Ira Fishman]

Ira Et Al:

I think it's important to remind some of you of the basic logical fallacy of the Ad hominem attack

Ad hominem means “against the man,” and this type of fallacy is sometimes called name calling or the personal attack fallacy. An ad hominem fallacy occurs when someone attacks the person instead of attacking his or her argument. This approach can act as a method of discrediting an opponent or simply deflecting or avoiding the actual topic of discussion.

This board is based upon open and honest discussion. If you have to depend on logical fallacies maybe you should re think your lines of argument.

Ben,


Other than his spelling challenge, my post had nothing to do with Matt personally. He asserted that his generation was dealing with a “difficult period”. I only asked what is the definition of a “difficult period” and pointed out that maybe he should reflect upon that assertion, which Matt did.


Ira

[Jason Thurman]

“In previous generations golf has been able to maintain a rules culture based on the notion that golf- like life- is not always fair. However evolutionary neuroscience has shown that humans (like most animals) are hardwired to detect when the environment is unfairly slanted against them – a core survival instinct. Generation Z are the first generation that will not simply accept and put up with a culture that tells them to ‘suck it up’. Any sport/leisure pastime that fails to adapt to this sea change in human culture will struggle to grow or even maintain participation levels amongst this next wave of potential players”

- Stephen Smith, Chief Neuroscientist at PSY enz/SPL

Thoughts ?



Niall

The point is inherently flawed because it assumes from the beginning that "golf has been able to maintain a rules culture."


Let's use the "no relief from a ball in a divot in the fairway" example. The Rules of Golf do not permit relief from a ball in a divot in the fairway. What percentage of balls that come to rest in a divot in the United States are played as they lie? It can't be over 50%...


Plenty of people play golf without being particularly immersed in "golf culture" or its "rules culture." If a Zoomer just can't abide all the ways that traditional golf culture expects them to "suck it up" and wants to play in flip flops and a tank top while taking a few dozen mulligans, there's still plenty of room in the big tent for them.

[Matt Schoolfield]

He asserted that his generation was dealing with a “difficult period”.

Two points:

First, just to be clear, I'm an elder millennial, not even close to gen z.

Second, I didn't say anything about any specific generation in my initial point:

When it comes to pointing out the flaws in other generations, just be careful you aren't criticizing a group doing their best in a difficult period.

I wasn't making this about my cohort. I'm talking about young people in general.

[Kalen Braley]

Certainly nothing new to see here.  This stuff's been going on since Grug accused his nephew Lars of being a sissy because he fights saber-tooth tigers with a pointy stick instead of his bare hands, like a "real man" would do it.

On a side note, I am curious when our new Admin is going to shut this thread down given its current downhill/potentially ugly trajectory (although bonus points for coming up with a fine holiday topic to debate).

Until then carry on gentleman, bout to pop a bag of popcorn and grab a beverage to enjoy the show.

[Jerry Kluger]

We think of golf from the perspective of people who play the game with a recognition and respect for its history as opposed to something to do with your buddies to have fun.  Wait - what am I saying - you can have both and that is why we enjoy it.  But how many young people are playing it regularly enough to enjoy it and try to get better - that is what is missing. 

[Joe Zucker]

In an attempt to steer this thread back to architecture, is there any evidence that young people like quality architecture more/less than prior generations?  I doubt there is real data on this, but modern media (in all forms from instagram to podcasts) seems to have been a boon to quality golf course architecture.  Given these mediums skew younger, I wouldn't be shocked if gen Z has more appreciation than older generations.


All that being said, this is still a niche topic with most people of any generation love the game because they like hitting a ball, regardless of whose architecture they're playing.