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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Last year as I was playing North Berwick for the fifth time I suddenly thought that it was kind of a novelty compared to the challenges we face on several courses west of Philadelphia. We have several Flynn’s, a few Ross, one Tilly and some modern Doak and Hanse that have enough going on to keep you intrigued.


  Links needs wind. Hilly courses always have the land.


  I’m just feeling sacrilegious this morning. It was stated on another topic that Ran thinks all links courses are at least a 5 on the Doak Scale. Doubtful


The approaches are better, the greens usually more interesting, and the trees add another challenge on hilly courses.




Hilly courses of quality are more golfish.


I’m seeing more love in the UK for places like Cleeve Hill which I find interesting.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2024, 09:43:09 AM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2024, 08:48:47 AM »
Mke,


You feeling "golfish" today?


Bill

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2024, 08:52:14 AM »
Mke,


You feeling "golfish" today?


Bill


In Vermont where it might not make it to 20 degrees.


C’mon, Bill.  Give me your best shot.
AKA Mayday

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2024, 08:59:54 AM »
Ha-ha. I'll give it some thought today. My initial reaction is that you're focus is on what you might be defining as "quality" golf being along the lines of challenge and not emphasizing the fun quirk side of the game that is integral to links golf. Inconsistent variables such as wind has a much greater influence on playability and challenge which some might find a weakness of links golf but it's part of the fun.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2024, 09:09:18 AM »
I love “quirk” but it is more like most miniature golf —laughing at your fate. Remember Putt Putt. That was legitimately challenging.


 I appreciate the need to make a course playable when the winds get up but if not it becomes less of a golfing challenge.


  Whereas these hilly courses test your shots more. They even test your body more since the walk is tougher.
AKA Mayday

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2024, 09:24:13 AM »
Yes, wind is a factor but surely the biggest factor in links golf is the turf.


Niall

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2024, 09:43:04 AM »

  Whereas these hilly courses test your shots more. They even test your body more since the walk is tougher.


There it is. I knew we’d get the T-word.


When golf is strictly an examination, it’s not golf anymore. I understand that this flies in the face of the US Open view of what a golf tournament is. But I think elements, unpredictability, and chance are part of our game.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2024, 10:15:31 AM by Ben Sims »

David Federman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2024, 09:49:03 AM »
I am hearing "variety is the spice of live." Although I have not played nearly as many links courses, it cannot be disputed that the variety of fabulous, challenging, fun and interesting courses around the Philly area is second to none. Comparing the links courses to them is an apples and oranges comparison. Viva la difference! The fact that you have played North Berwick five times speaks for itself and your affinity for links golf. "Nae wind, nae golf."
« Last Edit: December 14, 2024, 10:19:17 AM by David Federman »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2024, 11:08:10 AM »
Yes, wind is a factor but surely the biggest factor in links golf is the turf.


Niall


Niall,
Certainly the turf is better than our clay based stuff but after 9 holes you get acclimated.
We discussed which holes at Elie and Crail appealed and elevation change was often the discussion.
AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2024, 11:45:21 AM »

I’m a bit biased when it comes to architects like Flynn (my home course is a Flynn and I’ve studied his work intensively for years).  But I do think his lack of experience with authentic links courses (he never crossed the pond to study them) didn’t help his cause.  Frankly, I think his work with Huge Wilson and his eight year stint at Pine Valley is what helped save and shape his success and enabled him to do the body work that he did. But missing that links course experience is probably what keeps him for many out of the top tier of the Golden Age architects.  Links golf is real golf and my favorite type of course to play but I love variety which is what makes our sport so special and unique. 


And yes the turf is so key to links golf vs the clay based soils we have to often deal with on Parkland courses.  Poor drainage, soft approaches, mud balls, lack of ground options in wet conditions, … as Mike says you adjust but it is not nearly as much fun. 

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2024, 12:19:19 PM »
Without wishing to be unkind but is this thread serious or satire?
Atb

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2024, 12:29:26 PM »
Without wishing to be unkind but is this thread serious or satire?
Atb


I started to post a response but this will do instead.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2024, 12:45:25 PM »
   Mike aspires to be the Howard Cosell of GCA. Best not to humor him.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2024, 01:45:54 PM »
Anecdotally, while the pros regularly eviscerate TOC they certainly don't do same to ANGC...

I think this is true more often than not:  Links needs wind. Hilly courses always have the land.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2024, 01:52:20 PM »
Without wishing to be unkind but is this thread serious or satire?
Atb


That was the actual thought I had as I played the last few holes at North Berwick. I love them but I could see a clown’s mouth on 18.

AKA Mayday

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2024, 02:10:10 PM »
Without wishing to be unkind but is this thread serious or satire?
Atb
Nope it is, another exagerrated binary choice thread, intended to provoke responses.

But to be fair to the questioner in answer I say "Vive la difference" to both the debate approach and the characteristics of the subjects; each style has their own merits and weaknesses, they are entirely different challenges and not comparable therefore.
But the best inland (hilly or otherwise) courses are, without doubt, inspired by the priniciples and strategies laid out on the links (as expoused by CBM, James Braid and others).

As per the recent "Talking Golf History" podcast the reason the "Grand Slam" is is so important is that to achieve it (over a career let alone across any one-year period, calendar year or otherwise) is that each event challenges these different skills. Those that do it are proven to possess all the skills required as demanded by each of these disparate challenges.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2024, 07:13:28 AM by Simon Barrington »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2024, 02:39:07 PM »
Anecdotally, while the pros regularly eviscerate TOC they certainly don't do same to ANGC...

I think this is true more often than not:  Links needs wind. Hilly courses always have the land.


Hilly courses don’t always have the land. They have hills.


If hilly courses are your thing, go play Carne. It has the land and hills. You’ll probably find it a Doak 10. Many people do.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2024, 03:31:45 PM »
Anecdotally, while the pros regularly eviscerate TOC they certainly don't do same to ANGC...

I think this is true more often than not:  Links needs wind. Hilly courses always have the land.


Hilly courses don’t always have the land. They have hills.


If hilly courses are your thing, go play Carne. It has the land and hills. You’ll probably find it a Doak 10. Many people do.


First, Carne is indeed very hilly and quite brilliant.


Second, I am hard pressed to think of a great links course that does not have elevation changes, including NB. TOC seems flat but it really is “reverse hilly” in many places.


The thread is based on a false premise. And I say that as a member of a hilly Ross course (with many of the diagonal elevated greens/false fronts that Mayday highlighted for RG in a recent thread) on clay that I love.


Ira




Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2024, 03:54:40 PM »
Great call about Carne.  It is a real treasure.  I loved it. 


Ira,
When you say most great links courses have elevation changes, are you talking about the sand dunes?  I guess what defines elevation change is relative but that is ok.  I know this has been discussed in the past (but if you have been on this site long enough most everything has multiple times)  :D

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2024, 05:04:16 PM »
Great call about Carne.  It is a real treasure.  I loved it. 


Ira,
When you say most great links courses have elevation changes, are you talking about the sand dunes?  I guess what defines elevation change is relative but that is ok.  I know this has been discussed in the past (but if you have been on this site long enough most everything has multiple times)  :D


Up is up and down is down and across is across regardless what material is below the grass.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2024, 07:21:34 PM »
Mike,


What is your experience playing NGLA? Do you think it is flat and needs wind?
Tim Weiman

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2024, 02:40:42 PM »
Mike,


What is your experience playing NGLA? Do you think it is flat and needs wind?


I have played it twice and love it but I don’t see it as either in this discussion.
AKA Mayday

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2024, 03:13:11 PM »
Golf is eye-level and below. Everything above it is drama.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2024, 03:15:07 PM »
   Mike aspires to be the Howard Cosell of GCA. Best not to humor him.


Look at that little Mayday go!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Links golf is miniature golf compared to quality hilly courses.
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2024, 03:51:52 PM »
   Mike aspires to be the Howard Cosell of GCA. Best not to humor him.


Look at that little Mayday go!


Who barfed on my boots?!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection