The Lido Course Profile Now Live!

[Andrew Harvie]

The Lido Course Profile


I played Lido in September 2023, and I still constantly think about it on, at minimum, a weekly basis. To me, that's a sign of a good golf course!


In my mind, Lido is a great, great golf course. I liken it to a chess match, with every single swing having some sort of implication down the road. Yeah yeah, every great golf course has that same feeling and the true heavy-hitters worldwide never have wasted shots or swings, but among the upper echelon of golf courses I've played, only a couple truly provide that feeling to the level Lido does. That being the copious amounts of ways to play each hole: on a handful of examples, there's upwards of 150 yards left to right of space to make a decision! Max Behr wrote a lot about the "line of charm," and Lido perhaps does the best of any golf course I've seen of making sure that line of charm is only for the most aggressive and confident.


Anyways, I won't string this along because the course profile is a 19-minute read time. But if you've played Lido, what was your general takeaways and thoughts?

[Joe Bausch]

Beautiful, man!

[Tim Gavrich]

I played Lido in May and, like Andrew, it's been on my mind ever since. The best American golf course I played this year for sure, and pretty close even to the two best courses I saw overseas - County Down and Portrush.


There are any number of things to talk about but to me the routing - basically two concentric counterclockwise loops - is indescribably interesting. I think the general oval-ness of the course adds to the already palpable steeplechase-golf feel. It's so bizarre - I love it so much.

[Thomas Dai]

Curious to know what kind of feedback there has been from non-elite lady players and short hitting men.
Not just distance and carry feedback but trajectory and stopping distance related too as from the photos some of the features seem very steep.
Atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

Curious to know what kind of feedback there has been from non-elite lady players and short hitting men.
Not just distance and carry feedback but trajectory and stopping distance related too as from the photos some of the features seem very steep.
Atb

I am a short-hitting 77-year-old man. My handicap is about 7. I played Lido once. I had a great caddie who guided me around the course. I broke 80 and hit most of the greens. Like the Old Course, there are many ways to play it. I thought it was brilliant.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Very nice write up

Anyways, I won't string this along because the course profile is a 19-minute read time. But if you've played Lido, what was your general takeaways and thoughts?

I was lucky enough to play in the hickory tournament this year, so I managed to get around a few times.

The inconspicuous nature of the Biarritz from the tee hides much of the swale, once again showcasing how Lido is the ultimate hole course that rewards multiple rounds and a home field advantage

I think this is a very good thing to highlight, and is almost a theme for the course. There is a ton of stuff happening on most of the holes, and much of it is blind. So much so, that there are even hazards that left me scratching my head: what is the point of the principals nose bunker on #2? There are a few out-of-play bunkers on #11 and #17. I assume there is a sense of hit-and-hope that is built into the course, which brings me to my next thought:

Truthfully, much of Lido is hard. Even in 1922, Bernard Darwin, arguably the finest golf writer at the time, identified Lido as being unusually difficult.

Match play doesn't care if the course is easy or hard. In fact, match play is more interesting when the course is hard, because it leaves players unsure of victory, even when their opponents are in a bunker off the tee. I see the Lido as a paragon of match play course design, but for stroke play, it's a bit of a slog. I'd recommend playing a match there if you can.

Could this be the most severe and demanding punchbowl in the Macdonald/Raynor catalogue? There is a strong argument for it.

My finest moment that weekend was managing a birdie on Punchbowl in one of the rounds. I hit a smashed fade off the tee caught the contour and rolled out down toward the water, then a carving draw that just curled over the right side of the bunker and disappeared. I had no idea whether I was on the green or down the hill, but as I came over the hill, it was only a tester of a putt from the hole. Really something special, and arguably the intended result of a punchbowl design.

The severity of the bunkering at Lido is certainly evident on the final tee shot of the day. Missing in this bunker provides a sour taste in one’s mouth coming home!

This is clear. The intensity of the bunkering is almost surreal to the point that I was seeking out old photos of the course to see if it could have possibly been that severe when it was originally constructed, and so far I've found no reason to doubt it. Really intense, and is an especially rude awakening if you end up in the exceptionally deep bunkers behind the first green like I did.

Interestingly, the 18th green at Lido is located near the 9th tee… some 410 yards from the clubhouse! Without question an unusual quirk of the golf course, though Macdonald prioritizing the quality of the golf holes in exchange for an unusual walk following the round’s completion is evident that the property’s maximum potential was fulfilled.

I think this may have something to do with the awkward position between the location of the hotel overlooking the beach (next to the 8th tee), with the clubhouse being adjacent to the highway. Since the 18th green is a short walk from the hotel, I suspect that the routing trades a walk at the end of the round for a walk at the beginning. The ninth hole being the linchpin that can't be swapped for the first or second, without making the turn impossible. I also think it's entirely reasonable to keep the clubhouse far enough away from the beach so as to not waste any of the most valuable property.

---

I think the course is exceptional, and I found myself having the most fun on holes that I didn't even think about much before arriving (notably the Cape hole and Alps). I love the concept of infinite subtlety that exists there, and smattering a bit of randomness and trouble basically everywhere really achieves that nicely. I only wish the wind had been whipping that weekend to make it all the more intense. I want to say thanks to all the members and staff there for being so gracious and welcoming to the rag tag bunch of architecture nerds, because I really got to have some genuinely insightful discussions during each round and afterward.

[PCCraig]

The best American golf course I played this year for sure, and pretty close even to the two best courses I saw overseas - County Down and Portrush

Come on...................

[Tom_Doak]

Truthfully, much of Lido is hard. Even in 1922, Bernard Darwin, arguably the finest golf writer at the time, identified Lido as being unusually difficult.

Match play doesn't care if the course is easy or hard. In fact, match play is more interesting when the course is hard, because it leaves players unsure of victory, even when their opponents are in a bunker off the tee. I see the Lido as a paragon of match play course design, but for stroke play, it's a bit of a slog. I'd recommend playing a match there if you can.

This is a very good point and one that I haven't thought to bring up before.  It wasn't my job there to decide if the course was too hard or too easy . . . it was my job to re-create Macdonald's course, although we did make room for some more back tees in the process.


I personally have played Lido about ten rounds now and NONE OF THEM were at stroke play.  I've always played matches -- foursomes a couple of times, four-balls or singles the rest.


When someone here earlier this year was questioning how difficult some of the approach shots were, and how it was almost impossible to get within 30 feet on certain holes, they were complaining from the perspective of stroke play.  It never occurred to me to ask them if they could get closer than their opponent?  Lido was not built to be played against par.

[Sean_A]

Viewing the photos the course looks difficult…and intriguing.

I never understood the matchplay/strokeplay divide. Those are ways to keep score. How does this alter the course?

Ciao

[Simon Barrington]

Viewing the photos the course looks difficult…and intriguing.
I never understood the matchplay/strokeplay divide. Those are ways to keep score. How does this alter the course?
Ciao

It's a difference in perception that feeds into intent, and for design the requirements of the bulk of customers which architects absorb over time.

IMHO it is their role to challenge the homogeniety and hold the line to keep the excitement and interest up.
To save the golfers from themselves and the ubiquity of blandness.


If you take two roughly similar golfers/kids out onto a "Himalayas" Putting green and say you can putt to any hole/place/target, if playing Matchplay (where the winner of the previous hole, chooses the next) they tend to choose the most challenging next hole.
This maximises excitement, fun, variety, and difficulty as they try to seperate themselves one-on-one hole-by-hole. If they lose a hole so what, they can win the next, consequences of failure are diminished. The excitement grows the closer one gets to a conclusion

Not forgetting many such games, when scaled up across free-routing linksland by the first golfers, usually included an aspect of gambling, the essence of chance and an arrogant belief that one could do better than the other. (That's why all these short courses and putting greens at resorts are getting so much profile and use these days)


But, if playing with a card & pencil to minimise ones score across all holes, their choices tend to become much more prosaic and homogenised, betting on their consistency and attempting to reduce the influence of chance. Failure carries forward, a millstone. Excitement only grows if the protagonists (who may even be in different groups) are known to be close, essentially reverting the challenge to matchplay, that is when we get the best events ("Duel in The Sun", Mickleson v Stenson @ Troon etc.).

The advent of strokeplay, and it's incredible growth (initiated by the simple desire to measure golfers' standard between clubs, and not within where Matchplay was originally dominant) changed the way golfers perceived the game and golf holes, and designers have had to accomodate that reduction of chance and excitement.


Matchplay enables the (childlike) creativity to come out in design, producing more exciting (aka "Sporting") golf holes.
Dialling it up if you like.

[Thomas Dai]

Match play and strokeplay and yee olde matchplay ‘play the man’ or ‘play the course’ debate.
Of course unless it’s gross matchplay it is necessary to establish a handicap beforehand and handicaps traditionally* are acquired via strokeplay.
Atb






* although maybe not necessarily these days given the new WHS.

[Simon Barrington]

"Of course unless it’s gross matchplay it is necessary to establish a handicap beforehand and handicaps traditionally* are acquired via strokeplay.
Atb
* although maybe not necessarily these days given the new WHS."

One of the (possibly) unintended consequences of the WHS might actually be a resurgence in Matchplay (with the system spitting out approximations for handicapping regardless) we can only live in hope.

Architecture at the top end doesn't feel the strokeplay effect as much as where the majority of the game plays.
The pressure for homgeniety and ease of play is strong in memberships, especially those less informed in GCA.

I know a Club who were considering changes to the course to supposedly challenge the better players from the tee (an area they mistakenly thought was lacking) but then a small group of these better players pushed hard for the removal of the few hazards on the course proven (by a detailed survey of member play) to catch/challenge those same players! 

The ego of seeking lower handicaps can be a strong driver towards blandness in design/resdesign.

[Tim_Cronin]

This is a tremendous profile. I have to drag myself up there.

[Bob Montle]

I have two questions for Mr Doak.

Have you learned anything new from reproducing this course, that you might use on future courses you build?
Has your opinion of Macdonald changed from your thoughts before you worked on the Lido?

I would love to see your thoughts.
PS:  I have only played your course at Dismal River - and would be happy if that was the only course I was allowed to play from now on.

[Tom_Doak]

I have two questions for Mr Doak.

Have you learned anything new from reproducing this course, that you might use on future courses you build?

Has your opinion of Macdonald changed from your thoughts before you worked on the Lido?

1.  Yes, I definitely learned a lot about the new technical avenues available to build golf courses and to "sample" contours from one place for use in another.  Whether one should do so will be a matter of great debate . . . C.B. Macdonald himself said it was impossible to re-create a great hole from another course in the same character, but it is much closer to reality now, and I do lean toward thinking that Macdonald would have availed himself of building a more exact replica of certain holes if he'd had the chance.


2.  I was quite surprised at the level of detail in the fairway contours at Lido that were put into the plasticine model of the course and carried out faithfully by the contractors.  SOMEONE spent a heck of a lot of time doodling ideas for contours to steer a tee shot or second shot around a certain bunker . . . I don't believe that much or any of those contours are random, but instead that they are the product of much more thought than I usually put into my own plans.  I came away believing that C.B. Macdonald spent more time thinking about his design for Lido than anything after The National, and that's exactly why the reaction to the course has been so favorable.  I have spent a lot of time at Chicago Golf Club over the years, and Chicago Golf is child's play in comparison to Lido.

[MCirba]

I need to get there soon.

[John Challenger]

Played the Lido more times than any other course in 2024 despite the fact that it took me 3+ hours to drive there on weekend visits! Asking for your forgiveness for the superlatives that follow.

For friends playing the course for the first time, I instituted the sacrilegious rule that whenever they landed in the waste areas, they could tee up the ball on a tuft of grass. On the following rounds, we played true to golf's and CB's first principle, "play as it lays". It virtually eliminated the concern that the golf course was too hard. We also played multiple tees and I made sure my shorter hitting friends played from the greens or whites or white/greens (tees). One individual, who has moved up from a 14 to a 9 handicap this year, had the best score of his life with a 78 from the whites on our last round of that particular trip.

Not only is the Lido built for match play, it's a course that plays more fun low. Hickory play is encouraged and a set is easily rented. Playing match play with hickories is a blast and not only because total score no longer matters. With undulations and hazards in abundance, every shot is new. Like St. Andrews, the fairway undulations at the Lido seem as molded and intentional as greens.

Playing hickories, each shot has the complexity of a chip shot because aim and height and where to the land the ball matter. Running a fairway ball on bouncy turf between two hazards or landing it on an angled bank is as much fun as daring to hit it over a hazard. I look for those shots with my regular clubs now.

The greens are double and triple the size of most of the standardized greens of today. It effectively means there are two or three greens on many of the holes, which creates different lines and new hazards to navigate each day. Everyday golfers also hit many more greens, which means more happiness. The lost art of lag putting becomes important again and the lags can be journeys up and down and around.

The hard and fast and springy turf is built on top of 100 feet of sand. In the midwest section of the U.S., the opportunity to hit regularly off of firm turf is a rare joy.

The combined green complex for the Channel and Punchbowl holes just might be the greatest ever built in the history of golf. The Cape hole is a strategic masterpiece. The second shot around the corner or over the Alps to the two-tier green is spectacular.

For a course that really might be considered a 100 courses based on tee position, green position, and wind, CB's decision to finish with what today might be considered by gca aficionados the most famous hole ever designed, MacKenzie's Prize Hole, was an inspired  conclusion. It's the course in a nutshell. There are five different distinct lines to a gigantic, complex green. If the green might be considered to have five pin positions, i.e. one for each corner and the center, then the hole creates 5X5 different lines. Can that be found anywhere else in the world?

CB might have been the first person ever to consider the idea of scrutinizing the grounds at St. Andrews, and at other of the top courses of the British Isles, and then to bring archetypes (and clones?) to new life. Is it possible that CB took templates to the whole course level at the Lido? Later and for months, MacKenzie pored over the fairway undulations at St. Andrews in order to discern their impact. Did he ever make templates or drawings of the fairway features?

If Lido is the magnum opus of the mature CB, it seems prophetic that he chose Alister MacKenzie to design the last hole. Was he anointing or passing the crown to MacKenzie? CB selected someone else's new design, and not a tradition-based template, surprising decisions by someone historians often characterize as a self-absorbed traditionalist. Perhaps, he was pointing the way to the future, a new direction we might pursue today.

[Joe Bausch]

I had the distinct pleasure of playing Lido in early May of 2024 w/ John Challenger and it was delight. We played up a set of tees and it was just as much fun as my maiden visit in May of 2023 playing the white tees.

If you enjoy my style of photo albums, you'll likely enjoy this one of Lido from the May 2024 visit:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Lido_May2024/index.html

[Michael Chadwick]

If Lido is the magnum opus of the mature CB, his crowning achievement, it seems prophetic that he chose Alister MacKenzie to design the last hole. Was he anointing him or passing the crown? And he selected a new design, not a tradition-based template, that perhaps pointed the way to a future we might pursue today. A new direction.

John, appreciate your commentary. Your enthusiasm for the course is infectious.


This final paragraph is a fascinating idea. Whether or not Macdonald was passing the baton intentionally, it no doubt can serve as a great symbol for the progression of architecture in America.

[MCirba]

I need to get to Sand Valley.


For those who've played both, how would you compare Lido to Old Macdonald?   I suspect they share some similar qualities.  I know I'm an outlier but OM is my favorite at Bandon.

[Pete Lavallee]

Mike,


You need to get started soon for 2026, as I believe 2025 is already fully booked!

[Joe Zucker]

I need to get to Sand Valley.


For those who've played both, how would you compare Lido to Old Macdonald?   I suspect they share some similar qualities.  I know I'm an outlier but OM is my favorite at Bandon.

I've played OM a couple times and the Lido only once.  I would say the two courses are cousins, rather than a closer familial relationship.  You see a lot of similarities in the templates and greens.  But the landscape and dunes of Oregon make it feel quite a bit different in my view.  The Lido feels "built" while OM is much more natural.

[Tom_Doak]

For those who've played both, how would you compare Lido to Old Macdonald?   I suspect they share some similar qualities.  I know I'm an outlier but OM is my favorite at Bandon.

I would say the main difference is that the bunkers at Lido are deep and ferocious.  At Old Mac, Mr. Keiser was not in favor of building such nasty bunkers for the retail golfer . . . at Lido, Michael encouraged us to follow the original course to a T, and when it was clear that the bunkers at Lido had changed in character through the years and we needed some direction on which way to go, Michael's input was to make them deep and the faces very steep.


At Old Macdonald we tried to hark back to the original links holes that were the templates for Macdonald's work, but generally, those original holes don't have 2-3-4 different lines of play to consider.  Lido has several holes like 4, 6, 11, 15 and 18 where there are several different lines to choose from.  It's a much more idealistic, theoretical design.

[Thomas Dai]

“2.  I was quite surprised at the level of detail in the fairway contours at Lido that were put into the plasticine model of the course and carried out faithfully by the contractors.  SOMEONE spent a heck of a lot of time doodling ideas for contours to steer a tee shot or second shot around a certain bunker . . . I don't believe that much or any of those contours are random, but instead that they are the product of much more thought than I usually put into my own plans.  I came away believing that C.B. Macdonald spent more time thinking about his design for Lido than anything after The National, and that's exactly why the reaction to the course has been so favorable.  I have spent a lot of time at Chicago Golf Club over the years, and Chicago Golf is child's play in comparison to Lido.”

Thanks Tom.
Fascinating.
I recall looking at the fairway contouring in early-day photos of the Wisconsin Lido and pondering the thought and creation process of both the shaping work at the original Long Island venue and the Wisconsin course so thanks for the further details.
Atb


This section from John Challengers excellent post above is also of particular interest.

“Not only is the Lido built for match play, it's a course that plays more fun low. Hickory play is encouraged and a set is easily rented. Playing match play with hickories is a blast and not only because total score no longer matters. With undulations and hazards in abundance, every shot is new. Like St. Andrews, the fairway undulations at the Lido seem as molded and intentional as greens. It was a revelation. Playing hickories, each shot has the complexity of a chip shot because aim and height and where to the land the ball matter. Running a fairway ball on bouncy turf between two hazards or landing it on an angled bank is as much fun as daring to hit it over a hazard. I look for those shots with my regular clubs now.”

Oh how the game changes when clubs with considerably less loft are used (or are the only ones available or permitted) …. when the game is played as John says, low.

Each to their own but to me less loft requires greater creativity, a different thought process and a different skill set too. Aspects that have diminished in the game particularly with the introduction of lofted wedges with spinny grooves and multiple sole shapes.

Thoughts of Seve on the beach at Pedrena creating shots with a 3-iron come to mind rather than Mr and Miss Modern-Player hitting a billion shots with custom fitted high tech clubs from a flat lie on an immaculate driving range under the supervision of a swing guru.
Atb

[Andrew Harvie]

I need to get to Sand Valley.


For those who've played both, how would you compare Lido to Old Macdonald?   I suspect they share some similar qualities.  I know I'm an outlier but OM is my favorite at Bandon.

I don't really see many similarities, in all honesty. At Old Macdonald, the greens are large and more wavy or rolling, whereas Lido has more defined tiers, shelves, and sections. There are obvious differences in strategy, too: in most cases, Lido's trouble is scattered throughout the middle, whereas Old Macdonald is cutting in from the sides. There are centreline hazards and bunkers at Old Macdonald (10, 17 come to mind), but the difference there alone provides a much different experience from a playing standpoint. Spiritually, the courses might be linked by concept and at one point Old Mac might've been Lido, but Old Mac and Lido are separate things