What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?

[Brian Finn]

This is a fascinating quote about TCG. I've not really thought about the scale relative to the same architect's other work. To me, the liberating thing about the scale is you don't need to compare (like in a ranking). Any guesses on who the quote is from?

So then what's a 7?  A 7 is a course that sets itself beyond the typical Tom Fazio or Jeff Brauer or Tom Doak course.  If it's just an average example of our work, then it isn't worth traveling to play, any more than any other of our courses.  A 7 has to have something about it that's really special -- a unique setting, a better set of greens, a couple of truly great holes, etc.  Almost by definition, that would make it a legitimate contender for Best New Course of the Year (as opposed to all the 5's and 6's which advertise that they were "nominated" for the award).

My guess would be Tom Doak, but maybe I am missing something.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Yes it is from this thread:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=32122.0

[Mark_Fine]

I was just looking over a private comparison of course rankings that we did (about 20 years ago) between Ran and John Morrissett and Tom Doak and several other well traveled GM panelists. We all sent Ran a list of our Doak scores on some 350 of the top golf courses in the world (what this group wouldn’t do to see these numbers but that isn’t going to happen)! Anyway, in scanning over the list, there are only a few where any of us differ by more than one Doak point in our assessments.  Yes I realize a 7 can be much different than an 8 and so on, but everyone was pretty close.  I only saw a handful where someone was say a 6 and someone had the same course as an 8.  Ran even came up with Doak averages for all of us and it is very interesting as he compared our averages to GM's top 100 in the world rankings.  I have not looked at this in years but still have it.  Tom, do you still have your copy?  It is in spreadsheet format all nicely typed out.  I think we did it in 2003.   

[Michael Chadwick]

I glanced back at the volumes and was surprised to see a fairly sizable number of courses at the top-end where even the four authors diverged by 2 points, let alone the people in this discussion group. Admittedly Darius seems to have been the harshest grader, but not exclusively. The list is only for courses scoring at least an 8 or higher, with +/- 2 points. Only one course has a 3 point difference between its highest and lowest at that tier--Royal Aberdeen.


Muirfield
Royal Lytham
Royla Cinque Ports
Royal Aberdeen
St. Enodoc
Trump International Scotland
Waterville
Royal North Devon


Crystal Downs
Rock Creek Cattle Co.
Sebonack
Yale
Baltusrol Lower
Culver Academies
Hamilton
Lancaster
Milwaukee
Olympia Fields North
Salem
Whippoorwill
White Bear
Whitinsville


Pinehurst 2
Riviera
LACC
SFGC
Teeth of the Dog
Bel Air
Long Cove
Kapalua
Olympic Lake
Southern Hills
Old Town
We Ko Pa Saguaro


Barnbougle Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Cape Wickham
Victoria AUS

[Niall C]

The most egregious marking that I can see is for Moray Old which Tom initially gave as a 3 back in 1982. In the most recent edition he upgraded to a 4. Masa also gave it a 4 while Ran and Darius haven't seen it. I'm not sure if Tom has actually been back since 1982 as it's the same text which refers to the nearby RAF base being a distraction and the gorse making it overly tight.


The RAF base is certainly still there while the gorse, like on any other links course with gorse, comes and goes with periodic trimming back/blootering by the greenkeeping staff. What's also still there is some fantastic links golf including a couple of drivable par 4's, some stout par 4's, a cracking long par 3 with a semi-bath-tub style green, the magnificent green complex of the 16th and what many people consider to be the best closing hole in Scotland. Am I biased as a former member ? Of course I am but that doesn't mean I'm not right.


A few years ago Ran discovered Fraserburgh and I think it fair to say he was quite smitten with it, giving it a 7 (Tom gave it a 6). Well Moray Old is every bit as good and indeed IMO better than Fraserburgh. In fact I'd go as far as to say it's as good as any course in the north of Scotland, and yes that includes Dornoch (a 10 apparently - I tend to agree with those in a recent thread who agreed it "aint all that"), Nairn (average of 6 - should be at least a point higher, again IMO), Cruden Bay (three 8's and a 7), Castle Stuart (two 8's and a 7) and Brora (three 7's and a 6 - now, do we take off a point or add a point for the lack of sheep ?).


In short, Moray Old (and for that matter Moray New) is woefully under-appreciated. Does anyone else agree ?


Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Oh how it pains me to agree with Niall but a 3 and a 4 for Moray Old damages the credibility of the enterprise. Hopefully its the exception being out by likely 4 points.


Is there a finer 18th in links golf? Just at the point where so many courses lose lustre, it delivers an Ace.  Variety of holes and subtle terrain places it ...just behind Brora and Dornoch    in terms of interest and quality.


A fine course and a great home course for a future Buda

[Tom_Doak]

I glanced back at the volumes and was surprised to see a fairly sizable number of courses at the top-end where even the four authors diverged by 2 points, let alone the people in this discussion group. Admittedly Darius seems to have been the harshest grader, but not exclusively. The list is only for courses scoring at least an 8 or higher, with +/- 2 points. Only one course has a 3 point difference between its highest and lowest at that tier--Royal Aberdeen.


Muirfield
Royal Lytham
Royla Cinque Ports
Royal Aberdeen
St. Enodoc
Trump International Scotland
Waterville
Royal North Devon


Crystal Downs
Rock Creek Cattle Co.
Sebonack
Yale
Baltusrol Lower
Culver Academies
Hamilton
Lancaster
Milwaukee
Olympia Fields North
Salem
Whippoorwill
White Bear
Whitinsville


Pinehurst 2
Riviera
LACC
SFGC
Teeth of the Dog
Bel Air
Long Cove
Kapalua
Olympic Lake
Southern Hills
Old Town
We Ko Pa Saguaro



Barnbougle Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Cape Wickham
Victoria AUS

This is a good post and I would go so far as to agree that the differences between an 8 and a 9 and a 10 are much more personal and arbitrary than for those in the middle, because you are trying to choose a few courses to single out, and chacon a son gout

At least my co-authors have their own opinions — too many of the rankings see everyone fall in line on nine of the Top Ten so they aren’t labeled an “outlier”.  I was always an outlier until others started agreeing with me!

[Tom_Doak]

Oh how it pains me to agree with Niall but a 3 and a 4 for Moray Old damages the credibility of the enterprise. Hopefully its the exception being out by likely 4 points.

Is there a finer 18th in links golf? Just at the point where so many courses lose lustre, it delivers an Ace.  Variety of holes and subtle terrain places it ...just behind Brora and Dornoch    in terms of interest and quality.

A fine course and a great home course for a future Buda

The 18th is a wonderful hole, and unfortunately about the only one I remember, 40 years later.  When I played, the majority of holes were less than 50 yards from gorse left to gorse right - sometimes well less than 50 - which makes it impossible to deliver strategic interest.


Ran thinks every links course is at least a 5 and there is merit to that argument, but it’s also a form of snobbery.  Certainly not every links is a 7?

[David Kelly]

I glanced back at the volumes and was surprised to see a fairly sizable number of courses at the top-end where even the four authors diverged by 2 points, let alone the people in this discussion group. Admittedly Darius seems to have been the harshest grader, but not exclusively. The list is only for courses scoring at least an 8 or higher, with +/- 2 points. Only one course has a 3 point difference between its highest and lowest at that tier--Royal Aberdeen.


Muirfield
Royal Lytham
Royla Cinque Ports
Royal Aberdeen
St. Enodoc
Trump International Scotland
Waterville
Royal North Devon


Crystal Downs
Rock Creek Cattle Co.
Sebonack
Yale
Baltusrol Lower
Culver Academies
Hamilton
Lancaster
Milwaukee
Olympia Fields North
Salem
Whippoorwill
White Bear
Whitinsville


Pinehurst 2
Riviera
LACC
SFGC
Teeth of the Dog
Bel Air
Long Cove
Kapalua
Olympic Lake
Southern Hills
Old Town
We Ko Pa Saguaro


Barnbougle Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Cape Wickham
Victoria AUS

The course on that list that figures as one that might have a wide variety of opinions is Westward Ho! I happen to love it but some people just will NOT get it or, alternatively, get it but just don't think it's that great. 

[Sean_A]

I glanced back at the volumes and was surprised to see a fairly sizable number of courses at the top-end where even the four authors diverged by 2 points, let alone the people in this discussion group. Admittedly Darius seems to have been the harshest grader, but not exclusively. The list is only for courses scoring at least an 8 or higher, with +/- 2 points. Only one course has a 3 point difference between its highest and lowest at that tier--Royal Aberdeen.


Muirfield
Royal Lytham
Royla Cinque Ports
Royal Aberdeen
St. Enodoc
Trump International Scotland
Waterville
Royal North Devon


Crystal Downs
Rock Creek Cattle Co.
Sebonack
Yale
Baltusrol Lower
Culver Academies
Hamilton
Lancaster
Milwaukee
Olympia Fields North
Salem
Whippoorwill
White Bear
Whitinsville


Pinehurst 2
Riviera
LACC
SFGC
Teeth of the Dog
Bel Air
Long Cove
Kapalua
Olympic Lake
Southern Hills
Old Town
We Ko Pa Saguaro


Barnbougle Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Cape Wickham
Victoria AUS

The course on that list that figures as one that might have a wide variety of opinions is Westward Ho! I happen to love it but some people just will NOT get it or, alternatively, get it but just don't think it's that great.

I like RND as well, but an 8 is a fat score. The start and finish eliminates any such notion of an 8 being reasonable.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

8 for RND is way too high.  I know comparing different courses in different parts of the country is invidious but 8 for RND and 4 for Goswick?

[Sean_A]

8 for RND is way too high.  I know comparing different courses in different parts of the country is invidious but 8 for RND and 4 for Goswick?

Yes, there has to be an eye test to pass.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Ran thinks every links course is at least a 5 and there is merit to that argument, but it’s also a form of snobbery.  Certainly not every links is a 7?

It's very noticeable that Ran tends to give one point more on most of the links courses. One exception to that was Dornoch where he actually gave it a 9 compared to everyone else's 10.


Meanwhile Masa doesn't appear to be as keen on old fashioned links as the others. I do wonder though how much Ran, Masa and Darius were subconsciously influenced by Tom's scores in previous editions of the book ? Has there ever been an instance where all four have scored a new course independently without any knowledge of the others thoughts ?


Niall   

[Niall C]

8 for RND is way too high.  I know comparing different courses in different parts of the country is invidious but 8 for RND and 4 for Goswick?

I also agree on RND. It's lovely and charming with some great golf but also a lot of fairly humdrum mediocre stuff. I wonder if people get caught up in the romance of the place. It's certainly an enjoyable round for the most part, it reeks of the history of the place and the people are lovely but if judged purely on the merits of the course I'm not sure I'd give it much more than a 5, possibly a 6.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

The RND debate.
I’m a fan, hence biased, and so have no issue with an 8.
The grazing animals and even the walkers kinda add to the place, the overall experience and what some may see as the flatter less featureless holes highlight the specialness of the others. The peace and quiet and tranquility, aspects that I treasure in playing, add to the experience imo too.
My only real negative is playing over the road on holes 3 and 17. It’s long surprised me that the tee on 3 and the green on 17 haven’t been moved to the other side of the road not just for safety but for golfer ‘time waiting to play the next shot’ inconvenience purposes.
That they’ve recently built a short course on some spare land to the west of the Clubhouse adds to my appreciation of RND.
Wonderful place imo although I appreciate its ‘marmite’ nature and that others aren’t so keen.

[Mark Pearce]

I think you can love RND as a place, and even as a course, whilst acknowledging that as a course it's a solid 4/5, with a handful of really good holes and a few more really mundane ones.

[Michael Felton]

Ran thinks every links course is at least a 5 and there is merit to that argument, but it’s also a form of snobbery.  Certainly not every links is a 7?

It's very noticeable that Ran tends to give one point more on most of the links courses. One exception to that was Dornoch where he actually gave it a 9 compared to everyone else's 10.


Meanwhile Masa doesn't appear to be as keen on old fashioned links as the others. I do wonder though how much Ran, Masa and Darius were subconsciously influenced by Tom's scores in previous editions of the book ? Has there ever been an instance where all four have scored a new course independently without any knowledge of the others thoughts ?


Niall   

The thing I find interesting about this is I think if you asked Scott Fawcett and Erik B to rate courses, they'd come up with a pretty similar list to many of the people here. There is some subjectivity to it but I find it hard to imagine anyone going to Merion for example and thinking it was mediocre or poor. Where you may get differences between the Confidential Guide and Joe Schmoe is Joe Schmoe is going to base their rating more on condition than Tom D would (I think anyway), but normalizing for that, I think "great course", "good course", "mediocre course" and "awful course", you won't find much differentiation from anyone.


Having said that, I find it very hard to explain clearly and concisely what it is about a course that makes it "great", "good", "mediocre" etc. We can talk about strategy and penalty and so on and how this hole or that hole is good because it offers you this..., but I think for me at least, it's very much a "I know it when I see it" thing.


I would also add that individual holes you can get a pretty big range of opinions. Those can be much more polarizing. 6 at Deal for example I quite like it, but I know a lot of people who hate it and think it's a stupid hole. But as a whole course I think it's much harder to find that polarization.

[Will Lozier]

From the original CG, I can only remember that Kebo Valley was given a 4 (but was somehow referred to as a 5 in one of the indexes) and I've always seen it as a 6 having spend an entire summer playing it probably close to 30 times.


Not much else to argue with in that classic textbook!


Cheers

[Clyde Johnson]

Ballybunion (Old) is the only Doak 6-and-above course that I (can think of) that I have a +/- 2 differential with Tom's score. I think of that as a solid 8, but perhaps that's because Ballybunion had lost its pre-fame charm and originality by the time I visited!?


I'm certainly envious that Tom got to see so many British and Irish courses pre-2000s.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ballybunion (Old) is the only Doak 6-and-above course that I (can think of) that I have a +/- 2 differential with Tom's score. I think of that as a solid 8, but perhaps that's because Ballybunion had lost its pre-fame charm and originality by the time I visited!?


I'm certainly envious that Tom got to see so many British and Irish courses pre-2000s.

So you have Moray Old as no more than a 5?


This is so interesting,because when we played Eniscorone i enjoyed yoiur comments and thought 'he see's and appreciates things I just miss'.  Can't remember which hole it was, but the front of one green seemed cool to me and you said why it was unacceptable to you.


Clyde If you feel like sharing, what did you make of Moray Old?

[Tom_Doak]

I do wonder though how much Ran, Masa and Darius were subconsciously influenced by Tom's scores in previous editions of the book ? Has there ever been an instance where all four have scored a new course independently without any knowledge of the others thoughts ?

At the start of the exercise I asked them all to produce their own scores without referring to my old book, but of course they had an idea of what the 10s were and where they thought my scores were too low or high.  And I did give them a chance to adjust their scores before publication, although there were not too many changes.  (I personally don’t think you should ever change a score unless you’ve gone back, which is why Goswick is still a 4.)


The courses where everyone had to produce their own score were the ones built between 1995 and 2014.  I was personally quite proud that Ballyneal got 9s across the board without any discussion. . . I think it is the only course in the world that got four 9s.

[Tom_Doak]

I think you can love RND as a place, and even as a course, whilst acknowledging that as a course it's a solid 4/5, with a handful of really good holes and a few more really mundane ones.

No doubt there are some mundane holes, just as at Hoylake, or Brancaster, or (for many people) at St Andrews.  But those holes at Westward Ho! are still challenging and the place is so full of character, a 4 would be an admission that you have no soul.  Is it worth the trip out west?  For most people it certainly is, so that makes it at least a 6.

[Ira Fishman]

I do wonder though how much Ran, Masa and Darius were subconsciously influenced by Tom's scores in previous editions of the book ? Has there ever been an instance where all four have scored a new course independently without any knowledge of the others thoughts ?

At the start of the exercise I asked them all to produce their own scores without referring to my old book, but of course they had an idea of what the 10s were and where they thought my scores were too low or high.  And I did give them a chance to adjust their scores before publication, although there were not too many changes.  (I personally don’t think you should ever change a score unless you’ve gone back, which is why Goswick is still a 4.)


The courses where everyone had to produce their own score were the ones built between 1995 and 2014.  I was personally quite proud that Ballyneal got 9s across the board without any discussion. . . I think it is the only course in the world that got four 9s.

We had the good fortune of playing Ballyneal (2x) and Friar’s Head, Somerset Hills, and Ridgewood within two months of each other a couple of years ago. You could throw a towel over the first three (and maybe a big blanket to capture Ridgewood). They are brilliant which is why I think Somerset Hills is a notch too low in the CG. I have posted before that if Ballyneal were on the ocean, people would drool over it.


A year later, we had the good fortune of a second trip to Bandon followed less than a couple months later of playing Sleepy Hollow and Yale back to back. I do not remember the DS for Sleepy Hollow but I think it is a bit high in the magazine rankings. Yale in mediocre conditions is at least as good as all of the Bandon Courses (and BT and PD are truly special) which is why I posted that it is a notch too low.

[Clyde Johnson]

Ballybunion (Old) is the only Doak 6-and-above course that I (can think of) that I have a +/- 2 differential with Tom's score. I think of that as a solid 8, but perhaps that's because Ballybunion had lost its pre-fame charm and originality by the time I visited!?


I'm certainly envious that Tom got to see so many British and Irish courses pre-2000s.

So you have Moray Old as no more than a 5?


This is so interesting,because when we played Eniscorone i enjoyed yoiur comments and thought 'he see's and appreciates things I just miss'.  Can't remember which hole it was, but the front of one green seemed cool to me and you said why it was unacceptable to you.


Clyde If you feel like sharing, what did you make of Moray Old?

Tony, I was referencing courses Tom gave a 6 or above, so wasn't including the handful of courses which I (and no doubt a few others on here) suspect that Tom would rank more favourably if he visited again.

I started keeping a journal around 2010 of every course I visit. Prior to looking back at that, I would have said Moray Old was a 5 or 6.

Anyway, my entry from 2016 had it as a 6, with the following un-edited blurb:

"The Old builds, and builds…by the time you have scaled the well-photographed finisher you might just be smiling out loud.  With relic bunkers lying at every turn, today’s course, like most, has been squeezed into what most would call a ‘fine test.’ To that smile: punchbowl at the second, table-top third, bean pinched fourth, semi-blind and falling away fifth, the eleventh angled beyond a burn, the rolling fourteenth with the Moray behind, and swale divided sixteenth greens that contrast and challenge! "

[Jeff Schley]

Anyway, my entry from 2016 had it as a 6, with the following un-edited blurb:

"The Old builds, and builds…by the time you have scaled the well-photographed finisher you might just be smiling out loud.  With relic bunkers lying at every turn, today’s course, like most, has been squeezed into what most would call a ‘fine test.’ To that smile: punchbowl at the second, table-top third, bean pinched fourth, semi-blind and falling away fifth, the eleventh angled beyond a burn, the rolling fourteenth with the Moray behind, and swale divided sixteenth greens that contrast and challenge! "

Quite a nice write up. You should be the 5th rater in the 2035 version of TGC.