News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Anyone who posts (or reads) this discussion group has likely heard their fair share of hot takes when it comes to golf courses. These days, though, I find there's a bit of a cohesive groupthink: people generally are afraid to deviate too far from the established guidance of what's good and what's not---but maybe that's just my own bubble.


That said, I've always appreciated when people go against the mould and deviate from the standard line of thinking. At least in my friendship circles or people I talk to about golf courses, that standard set usually derives from the Confidential Guide series.


With that said, what's your biggest Doak Score difference from the Confidential Guide? Maybe it's something you have as an 8 or 9 that the group of authors (or the OG guide) has as a 5 or 6; or maybe something in the guide is a 10 you just can't see.


I generally tend to put more weight on Ran and Tom's scores over Darius and Masa because of my own tastes and how the first two scores generally align more with my personal tastes versus the second two: as an example, in Volume 3: Summer Destinations, Masa gave Blackhawk, a very good Rod Whitman design near Edmonton, Alberta a 4 (Darius a 6), and Darius gave Dakota Dunes, a below-average Graham Cooke near Saskatoon, a 6: by most Canadian standards, Blackhawk is a top 20 golf course in Canada, and Dakota Dunes just squeaks into the Top 100: for me, Blackhawk is a 7 (or maybe an 8 if I'm feeling spicy but more likely a 7), and Dakota is a 4... quite the difference! In their defence, they last saw Blackhawk in 2004, and Rod Whitman tweaks the layout almost every year and it's gotten a lot better since it opened, but the point stands.


The reasoning? Blackhawk's routing is pretty astute, with the front nine working its way around this central knob, with the 2nd and 5th playing into the it, the 3rd and 6th off, and the 7th directly over it, while the back nine sidewinds its way down into the valley against the North Saskatchewan River. That, and it's a really great set of greens. The individual holes---2nd, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 18th---are excellent too, with a lot of shot options and strategic decisions. Dakota Dunes is in a Doak 10 level property, cut through a sandy dunescape property like some of the Nebraska heavy-hitters, but Cooke built a parkland golf course with near zero strategic value and a monotone set of greens. Largely, the property holds Dakota up from being a Doak 3.


Anyways, that's a bit of a ramble. What says you?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 10:48:31 AM by Andrew Harvie »
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2024, 10:44:21 AM »
I don't know what score Tom gave Harbour Town, but I'm guessing it was pretty high. I would assign it a 4, tops.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2024, 10:45:21 AM »
I don’t know if it’s the biggest, but I recall thinking Doak and I profoundly disagree re Alnmouth Village. From memory I want to say it was maybe a 4 point spread.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2024, 10:47:21 AM »
I don't know what score Tom gave Harbour Town, but I'm guessing it was pretty high. I would assign it a 4, tops.


+1   100%!!!!


Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2024, 11:39:42 AM »
An interesting exercise, but I am not sure that the DS number differential says enough. Obviously, I cannot speak for Tom, but the numbers are not linear when matched up to the descriptions. There seems to be a bigger gap for a 6 to become a 7 or an 8 to become a 9 than just a one number gap implies.


For example, I have The Island Club, Baltray, Carne, Rosses Point, Ellie, and Waterville as one point too low but the descriptions would imply a greater gap. And although a 9 is heady territory, I think St. George’s Hill, Somerset Hills, and Yale are one point too low. But all of those gaps seem qualitatively greater than the numeric difference.


My biggest point disagreement is Golspie which I think matches the description of a 7.


Ira

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2024, 12:21:06 PM »
I would think Tobacco Road has the biggest point disparity based on the near endless convos here over the years.  I could easily see a 5 point differential between various members of the tree house.

Torrey Pines South has also sparked similar back and forth, even if to a lesser extent.

Jordan Beasley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2024, 12:51:37 PM »
I'm expecting to get roasted for this, but for me it is Crail Balcomie.  Rated a 5 in the CG, but in my opinion it is a magical place with a quality much greater than the sum of its individual holes' quality. I enjoyed it as much or more than several other lauded links courses, including Royal County Down, Portmarnock, Silloth, and yes the Old Course.


Now....I've played all of those courses once, and I have no doubt my opinion could shift if I had the privilege of playing them all 10 times each.


My love for Balcomie is illustrative of a few design preferences I have that I don't feel are necessarily shared by many current taste-makers:


(1) Valuing the quality of tee-to-green architecture, often more than the greens or green surrounds. I don't mind pedestrian greens if the journey to get there was full of strategy and excitement.


(2) Placing high value on natural beauty, setting, and "sense of place."


For similar reasons, I also rate Pebble Beach, Sand Hollow, St. Enodoc, and The Dunes (Australia) higher than most.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2024, 12:57:18 PM »
I'm expecting to get roasted for this, but for me it is Crail Balcomie.  Rated a 5 in the CG, but in my opinion it is a magical place with a quality much greater than the sum of its individual holes' quality. I enjoyed it as much or more than several other lauded links courses, including Royal County Down, Portmarnock, Silloth, and yes the Old Course.


Now....I've played all of those courses once, and I have no doubt my opinion could shift if I had the privilege of playing them all 10 times each.


My love for Balcomie is illustrative of a few design preferences I have that I don't feel are necessarily shared by many current taste-makers:


(1) Valuing the quality of tee-to-green architecture, often more than the greens or green surrounds. I don't mind pedestrian greens if the journey to get there was full of strategy and excitement.


(2) Placing high value on natural beauty, setting, and "sense of place."


For similar reasons, I also rate Pebble Beach, Sand Hollow, St. Enodoc, and The Dunes (Australia) higher than most.


Jordan,


I mentioned in the Brora thread that I have three professional golf photos in my study. One looking over 14 at Balcomie to the point where the North Sea meets the Firth is the second of the three.


Ira
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 01:13:32 PM by Ira Fishman »

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2024, 01:50:58 PM »
An interesting exercise, but I am not sure that the DS number differential says enough. Obviously, I cannot speak for Tom, but the numbers are not linear when matched up to the descriptions. There seems to be a bigger gap for a 6 to become a 7 or an 8 to become a 9 than just a one number gap implies.


For example, I have The Island Club, Baltray, Carne, Rosses Point, Ellie, and Waterville as one point too low but the descriptions would imply a greater gap. And although a 9 is heady territory, I think St. George’s Hill, Somerset Hills, and Yale are one point too low. But all of those gaps seem qualitatively greater than the numeric difference.


My biggest point disagreement is Golspie which I think matches the description of a 7.


Ira


Absolutely agree. The funny thing is that the difference between a 0 and a 5 might be (in the right situation) less than the difference between a 4 and a 5. St Andrews Castle for example is a 0 per Tom and a 5 per two of the others. I've played that and while it's over the top and I can see how it meets Tom's definition of 0, I think it's clearly a better golf course than most of the 1s, 2s and 3s (at least IMO).

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2024, 02:46:02 PM »
An interesting exercise, but I am not sure that the DS number differential says enough. Obviously, I cannot speak for Tom, but the numbers are not linear when matched up to the descriptions. There seems to be a bigger gap for a 6 to become a 7 or an 8 to become a 9 than just a one number gap implies.


For example, I have The Island Club, Baltray, Carne, Rosses Point, Ellie, and Waterville as one point too low but the descriptions would imply a greater gap. And although a 9 is heady territory, I think St. George’s Hill, Somerset Hills, and Yale are one point too low. But all of those gaps seem qualitatively greater than the numeric difference.


My biggest point disagreement is Golspie which I think matches the description of a 7.


Ira


Absolutely agree. The funny thing is that the difference between a 0 and a 5 might be (in the right situation) less than the difference between a 4 and a 5. St Andrews Castle for example is a 0 per Tom and a 5 per two of the others. I've played that and while it's over the top and I can see how it meets Tom's definition of 0, I think it's clearly a better golf course than most of the 1s, 2s and 3s (at least IMO).

Good call Michael. I forgot about the Castle Course. I never understood Doak’s concept of a 0. Golf is a selfish game which takes up too much space and money to maintain. To pick the Castle Course as the baddie seems utterly defenceless. So many courses have been built in crazy areas such as deserts and far flung places where they can’t survive without people getting on airplanes. Yet the Castle Course shouldn’t have been built? Not a good take.

There are a few issues, but the Castle gets far more right than wrong. Could be a 6 point spread.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2024, 03:58:31 PM »
I may be wrong, but I think Pinehurst #2 was originally a 10 and may have been moved to a 9 more recently. Either way, I've always disagreed.

WW

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2024, 04:50:20 PM »
Goswick! If only all 4s were like Goswick the world would be a better place. I'm pretty sure that score was the inspiration for John Lennon's 'Imagine'. As it happens, it's probably a 6/7 and there is weeping in the streets.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2024, 04:59:03 PM »
I suspect that many a course has been tweaked and fiddled with since Tom originally penned a DS for it, maybe even changed since the most recent revision of the Confidential Guide was published.
Fixed points in time vrs moving goalposts.
Atb

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2024, 07:43:19 PM »
I don't know what score Tom gave Harbour Town, but I'm guessing it was pretty high. I would assign it a 4, tops.


agreed


+1   100%!!!!
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2024, 08:18:49 PM »
The Confidential Guide has always been one of my favorite GCA books.  That said (maybe Tom will chime in) there are many scores that he gave for courses that I am guessing he might like to have another look at.  If I recall correctly, he rated courses like Yeamans Hall and The CC of Charleston 5s??  Really? And I know Tom likes to look at potential so I trust he looked past some of the maintenance issues etc that the courses might have experienced over the years when he assigned those ratings.  Furthermore, maybe I am not remembering correctly but didn't he say a restoration shouldn't move a course more than a point or so which would mean they could get to a 6 or so.  Anyway, it is easy to nit pick a few ratings here and there that we disagree with when you have someone who rated literally hundreds and hundreds of golf courses.  Without question we won't agree with all of them.  By the way, Harbour Town a 4 ::)  Take a closer look next time you play it  ;)  So much subtlety and shot making required without all the drama. It was transformative at the time and remains intriguing and inspiring every time I play it.  You can learn a ton about the nuances of GCA if you really study that golf course.  I won't disagree with Tom's 8 on that one. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2024, 10:19:17 PM »
An interesting exercise, but I am not sure that the DS number differential says enough. Obviously, I cannot speak for Tom, but the numbers are not linear when matched up to the descriptions. There seems to be a bigger gap for a 6 to become a 7 or an 8 to become a 9 than just a one number gap implies.

For example, I have The Island Club, Baltray, Carne, Rosses Point, Ellie, and Waterville as one point too low but the descriptions would imply a greater gap. And although a 9 is heady territory, I think St. George’s Hill, Somerset Hills, and Yale are one point too low.


One point too high or too low is just a friendly disagreement.  I could have given St George’s Hill a 9, but I played it ages ago when it was on nobody’s radar, so a 9 seemed excessive.


I once described the Doak Scale as quantum levels of a logarithmic scale - the difference between a 4 and 5 or a 7 v 8 is a real jump to another level.  So it’s easy to disagree by one point but it’s pretty hard to disagree by two or more

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2024, 10:23:48 PM »


Absolutely agree. The funny thing is that the difference between a 0 and a 5 might be (in the right situation) less than the difference between a 4 and a 5. St Andrews Castle for example is a 0 per Tom and a 5 per two of the others. I've played that and while it's over the top and I can see how it meets Tom's definition of 0, I think it's clearly a better golf course than most of the 1s, 2s and 3s (at least IMO).


Zero on the Doak Scale is entirely subjective and none of my co-authors have ever seen fit to call out a zero.  For me it’s reserved for when decisions are made for the wrong (non golf) reasons.  A zero is a 5 that pretends or tries to be an 8 and fails miserably, but it would never be confused for a 2 or a 4.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2024, 01:16:28 PM by Tom_Doak »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2024, 10:31:19 PM »
If I recall correctly, he rated courses like Yeamans Hall and The CC of Charleston 5s??  Really?


Well you should have seen Yeamans Hall in 1989.  The greens were small raised circles on top of the plateau, with collar height grass to the extremities of the original green pads.


After publication, the green chairman, Dr Henry Terrie (who was also chair of the English department at Dartmouth) called and asked me why I’d written that “if they fixed the greens, it would really be something.”  They had no idea what they had.  But that was one of the best examples of the book causing a club to restore a much better version of its course.  So no apology necessary.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2024, 09:26:07 AM »
Tom,
I hear you about what Yeamans probably looked like back then.  I see courses in that condition all the time and while most are not the quality of Yeamans, I believe they can be elevated more than a point or two with thoughtful restoration/renovation.  I can list a half dozen or more courses that we have taken from say a 3 or 4 to a 5 or 6+. 

Anyway, I tend to rate more what is there at present with my Doak score ratings vs what they could be if restored,…. But that doesn’t mean I don’t see their potential  :D

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2024, 10:16:35 AM »
Is this just water-cooler talk?

I don't deviate one iota from the master. He knows his trade, as I know mine. More importantly, he devised the scale.

I say to all of you, devise the Harvie scale, or the O'Leary scale, and then you'll have a better understanding of what you value.

Tom sleeps well at night.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2024, 11:15:14 AM »
The original score Tom assigned to Essex County Club in Massachusetts was 5 which was bumped to a 7 and scored 8,8,8 by the other contributors in the newer addition. I can live with the 7 although I think 8 rules the day as evidenced by the other scores but I don’t think it was ever a 5.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2024, 12:00:28 PM »
Tim,
As with Yeamans and others I think Tom was rating what was there at the time and not the potential but that is for him to say.  He all but said that about Yeamans back in 1989.  Probably deserved a 5 at that time. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2024, 01:18:34 PM »
The original score Tom assigned to Essex County Club in Massachusetts was 5 which was bumped to a 7 and scored 8,8,8 by the other contributors in the newer addition. I can live with the 7 although I think 8 rules the day as evidenced by the other scores but I don’t think it was ever a 5.


When did I give it a 5?  I don't remember seeing it before my associate Bruce Hepner started consulting there and I had to help move the 14th green.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2024, 01:59:31 PM »
The original score Tom assigned to Essex County Club in Massachusetts was 5 which was bumped to a 7 and scored 8,8,8 by the other contributors in the newer addition. I can live with the 7 although I think 8 rules the day as evidenced by the other scores but I don’t think it was ever a 5.


When did I give it a 5?  I don't remember seeing it before my associate Bruce Hepner started consulting there and I had to help move the 14th green.


Tom-You gave it 5 in the original CG. I have a copy of that as well as the updated version you did with Ran, Darius and Masa.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2024, 02:04:33 PM »
Is there a place (other than the guide itself) where we can access a large number Tom's scores, even if lacking the commentary?