What Is Your Biggest Doak Score Deviation From The Confidential Guide?

[Jeff Schley]

Is there a place (other than the guide itself) where we can access a large number Tom's scores, even if lacking the commentary?

Matt, not to be obvious, but you could buy the books. I found it a a nice gift for others as well. While the scores are something quick to focus on, the small commentary and gourmet's choice are quite insightful as well.  While anyone can post the scores who have the books, to me its a step too far. I don't know copyright law etc., but even if it was permissible I wouldn't post publicly.

BTW it looks to be on sale......https://www.doakgolf.com/product-tag/confidential-guide-to-golf-courses/

[Peter Sayegh]

If I recall correctly, he rated courses like Yeamans Hall and The CC of Charleston 5s??  Really?

Well you should have seen Yeamans Hall in 1989.  The greens were small raised circles on top of the plateau, with collar height grass to the extremities of the original green pads.

Tom, was that your first visit to Yeamans?

Yes or no, did you have knowledge of the course's "original" look and green pads or did you espy/surmise the lost features?

[Andrew Harvie]

Is this just water-cooler talk?

I don't deviate one iota from the master. He knows his trade, as I know mine. More importantly, he devised the scale.

I say to all of you, devise the Harvie scale, or the O'Leary scale, and then you'll have a better understanding of what you value.

Tom sleeps well at night.

Yes, it's water-cooler talk. But not every thread can be the CB Macdonald at Merion or some grandeur display of intellect


The intent of this thread was to simply see where people deviated. The entire scale and exercise is inherently subjective given the scale is named after the person who created the thread... but I got a handful of unique DM's over the years of people thinking Country Club of Buffalo is better than St. George's or Royal Dornoch is a Doak 8, so I was thinking it could be an interesting place to either hype up golf courses that people thought were under-valued in the guide, or pose a unique rebuttal to a high score if someone thought a golf course was overrated in the guide. It's certainly not meant to diss TD's scores.

[Ally Mcintosh]

There’s a handful that I remember being 2 away from me…. Can’t think of any more than that.

[Ira Fishman]

One of the things that I like about the DS is that the descriptions are straightforward and easy to apply for oneself. But I also like that it highlights the difference between my view of the quality of a course and my personal favorites. For example, I prefer prefer Woking to Ballybunion and Pine Needles to Bandon Dunes, but that does not necessarily mean that I would assign them the same DS to those pairs.

[David Amarnek]

I am biased, but Gulph Mills was given a 5 in both the most recent CG and the original.  Tom returned in 2017 and raved about it, so I assume he would now rate it differently.  With the work done so far by Gil Hanse, I've got it at a 7 or possibly even an 8.

[Tom_Doak]

Well you should have seen Yeamans Hall in 1989.  The greens were small raised circles on top of the plateau, with collar height grass to the extremities of the original green pads.

Tom, was that your first visit to Yeamans?

Yes or no, did you have knowledge of the course's "original" look and green pads or did you espy/surmise the lost features?

Yes, that was my first visit to Yeamans Hall.  And I'd seen plenty of Raynor courses by then, so it was very easy to imagine what they'd had and lost.  But, amazingly, nobody there seemed to have any idea that it was supposed to be different.

[Tom_Doak]

I am biased, but Gulph Mills was given a 5 in both the most recent CG and the original.  Tom returned in 2017 and raved about it, so I assume he would now rate it differently.  With the work done so far by Gil Hanse, I've got it at a 7 or possibly even an 8.

You don't need to be biased, I underrated that one.  Gil and I played it during the construction of Stonewall . . . but I didn't like it as much as Manufacturers or Rolling Green, which I gave 6s then, so I knocked Gulph Mills down to a 5.  They should have all been one point higher.  And Gil's work at Gulph Mills has helped tie together some of the disparate elements of the course, so I would agree that it's a 7 now.  [It helped to have the great Tom Paul as my host for my return visit.]

[Tom_Doak]

One of the things that I like about the DS is that the descriptions are straightforward and easy to apply for oneself. But I also like that it highlights the difference between my view of the quality of a course and my personal favorites. For example, I prefer prefer Woking to Ballybunion and Pine Needles to Bandon Dunes, but that does not necessarily mean that I would assign them the same DS to those pairs.

That's also a part of all this.  My scores weren't just based on how much I loved the place, but also on how I thought my readers would appreciate the various courses . . . for example, I love Pennard, but the first time through I only gave it a 6, and even then, a couple of the people who went out of their way to see it gave me trouble for rating it that highly. 


If a course is not going to be everyone's cup of tea, I have to think about that, because people are traveling hundreds or thousands of miles based on my recommendations.  They are not doing that based on the opinions of others here, so it's easier for you to go out on a limb.  And I did go against the grain a lot, especially at the time when the book was first written . . . places like Yeamans Hall and Gulph Mills were not on anyone's radar at all in 1988 or even 1996.  I think it's hard for everyone now to appreciate how different the consensus was at the time the book was published.

[Alex_Hunter]

I'm expecting to get roasted for this, but for me it is Crail Balcomie.  Rated a 5 in the CG, but in my opinion it is a magical place with a quality much greater than the sum of its individual holes' quality. I enjoyed it as much or more than several other lauded links courses, including Royal County Down, Portmarnock, Silloth, and yes the Old Course.


Now....I've played all of those courses once, and I have no doubt my opinion could shift if I had the privilege of playing them all 10 times each.


My love for Balcomie is illustrative of a few design preferences I have that I don't feel are necessarily shared by many current taste-makers:


(1) Valuing the quality of tee-to-green architecture, often more than the greens or green surrounds. I don't mind pedestrian greens if the journey to get there was full of strategy and excitement.


(2) Placing high value on natural beauty, setting, and "sense of place."


For similar reasons, I also rate Pebble Beach, Sand Hollow, St. Enodoc, and The Dunes (Australia) higher than most.

Very interesting. I enjoyed the first 14 holes of Crail but that finish from 15-18 felt like such a let down in comparison to the first 14 holes.

[mike_malone]

I am biased, but Gulph Mills was given a 5 in both the most recent CG and the original.  Tom returned in 2017 and raved about it, so I assume he would now rate it differently.  With the work done so far by Gil Hanse, I've got it at a 7 or possibly even an 8.

You don't need to be biased, I underrated that one.  Gil and I played it during the construction of Stonewall . . . but I didn't like it as much as Manufacturers or Rolling Green, which I gave 6s then, so I knocked Gulph Mills down to a 5.  They should have all been one point higher.  And Gil's work at Gulph Mills has helped tie together some of the disparate elements of the course, so I would agree that it's a 7 now.  [It helped to have the great Tom Paul as my host for my return visit.]

I thought Rolling Green was listed as a 7.


I play Gulph Mills a lot and it’s a fine course but my host there calls Rolling Green Gulph Mills on steroids.

[David Amarnek]

Tom Doak,
Thanks so much for your comments on Gulph Mills!
Mike Malone,
We are fortunate to have such great courses at our disposal!
David

[Matt MacIver]

I think PH#2 is -2 from the gang’s scoring.


I think Old Town is +2 even if that places it at 11.


But I also like Gleneagles Kings and Musgrove Mills (for way different reasons) so what do I know?!

[mike_malone]

Tom Doak,
Thanks so much for your comments on Gulph Mills!
Mike Malone,
We are fortunate to have such great courses at our disposal!
David

+1

[Steven Wade]

I am biased, but Gulph Mills was given a 5 in both the most recent CG and the original.  Tom returned in 2017 and raved about it, so I assume he would now rate it differently.  With the work done so far by Gil Hanse, I've got it at a 7 or possibly even an 8.

I just played Gulph Mills last month for the first time and really enjoyed it. I too was surprised to see it at a 5, but I wasn’t sure when it was rated.


Rolling Green, I believe was given a 7. I’m away from home and can’t verify. Philly Cricket was given a 6 and I think if it’s a 6 then Rolling Green and Mannie’s can’t be over 5s. That’s only my insignificant, regional opinion.

[Ronald Montesano]

They are not doing that based on the opinions of others here, so it's easier for you to go out on a limb.


Tom Doak, breaking hearts and crushing dreams.

You mean, my take on a golf course is not ...

[Jim_Coleman]

   I suspect Cricket’s 6 was pre Foster restoration.

[mike_malone]

I am biased, but Gulph Mills was given a 5 in both the most recent CG and the original.  Tom returned in 2017 and raved about it, so I assume he would now rate it differently.  With the work done so far by Gil Hanse, I've got it at a 7 or possibly even an 8.

I just played Gulph Mills last month for the first time and really enjoyed it. I too was surprised to see it at a 5, but I wasn’t sure when it was rated.


Rolling Green, I believe was given a 7. I’m away from home and can’t verify. Philly Cricket was given a 6 and I think if it’s a 6 then Rolling Green and Mannie’s can’t be over 5s. That’s only my insignificant, regional opinion.

Huh?

[Steven Wade]

I am biased, but Gulph Mills was given a 5 in both the most recent CG and the original.  Tom returned in 2017 and raved about it, so I assume he would now rate it differently.  With the work done so far by Gil Hanse, I've got it at a 7 or possibly even an 8.

I just played Gulph Mills last month for the first time and really enjoyed it. I too was surprised to see it at a 5, but I wasn’t sure when it was rated.


Rolling Green, I believe was given a 7. I’m away from home and can’t verify. Philly Cricket was given a 6 and I think if it’s a 6 then Rolling Green and Mannie’s can’t be over 5s. That’s only my insignificant, regional opinion.

Huh?

I do not think that Rolling Green is as good a golf course as Wissahickon. So therefore if Cricket was given a 6, Rolling Green (for me) would have to rate lower than that. That said, I think Wiss is higher than a 6. But again, these are just our personal preferences and opinions. Even the published ones.

[mike_malone]

I would be interested in what you think makes Philly Cricket better than Rolling Green since , as you say , it’s just personal opinion. I can’t really be objective because I’m a member of RG. I’m not offended by people’s opinion of it but am curious.

[Scott Warren]

A zero is a 5 that pretends or tries to be an 8 and fails miserably, but it would never be confused for a 2 or a 4.

The author invented the scale, so I shouldn't be surprised, but this is the perfect summary of a 0.

There's some life-affirming 4s out there, so it's better that the classification doesn't become shorthand for a diss.

[Steven Wade]

I would be interested in what you think makes Philly Cricket better than Rolling Green since , as you say , it’s just personal opinion. I can’t really be objective because I’m a member of RG. I’m not offended by people’s opinion of it but am curious.

Well, herein lies the problem, because I'm a Cricket Club member and I can't be truly objective about it either.


I suppose it comes down to what I look for in a golf course. I think RG is a wonderfully routed golf course and it makes good use of a pretty dramatic piece of property. My criticisms of it might be tied to my level of play. I don't tend to enjoy up and down golf courses as much and I find some of the most difficult approach shots (I'm thinking 8 and  9) to be overly penal. Don't get me started on 14.


I guess for me it's just that I prefer some quirkiness in my golf courses. I haven't played RG enough to discover anything but its brawn. I guess you could argue that the false fronts and rub of the green approach shots that roll back 50 yards are in and of themselves a quirky feature, I just find it a bit dispiriting. Again, it's a preference. I'd much rather play Merion East than Pine Valley. I'd much rather play NGLA than Shinnecock. I trend towards not getting punched below the belt.


That said, I don't think it's a controversial take to place Wissahickon ahead of RG, at least outside of GCA. I do appreciate you advocating aggressively for your place though.

[mike_malone]

I would be interested in what you think makes Philly Cricket better than Rolling Green since , as you say , it’s just personal opinion. I can’t really be objective because I’m a member of RG. I’m not offended by people’s opinion of it but am curious.

Well, herein lies the problem, because I'm a Cricket Club member and I can't be truly objective about it either.


I suppose it comes down to what I look for in a golf course. I think RG is a wonderfully routed golf course and it makes good use of a pretty dramatic piece of property. My criticisms of it might be tied to my level of play. I don't tend to enjoy up and down golf courses as much and I find some of the most difficult approach shots (I'm thinking 8 and  9) to be overly penal. Don't get me started on 14.


I guess for me it's just that I prefer some quirkiness in my golf courses. I haven't played RG enough to discover anything but its brawn. I guess you could argue that the false fronts and rub of the green approach shots that roll back 50 yards are in and of themselves a quirky feature, I just find it a bit dispiriting. Again, it's a preference. I'd much rather play Merion East than Pine Valley. I'd much rather play NGLA than Shinnecock. I trend towards not getting punched below the belt.


That said, I don't think it's a controversial take to place Wissahickon ahead of RG, at least outside of GCA. I do appreciate you advocating aggressively for your place though.

Philly is blessed with great options for golf and Cricket is one of them. I prefer more challenges and think RG provides them like few places.


So let’s agree Cricket is for wimps. RG is for players!!


I doubt that the differences between the two even warrant a full Doak number.

[Steven Wade]

So let’s agree Cricket is for wimps. RG is for players!!

Haha!

[Jim_Coleman]

   I’m a member of Rolling Green and I think Cricket is better. For me, it’s the bunkering. Cricket’s add beauty and challenge. I don’t think rating Cricket over Rolling Green is all that controversial. Every national and state ranking I’ve seen has it that way. And yes, they are both great.