6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours

[Tim Martin]

If courses tip out beneath 6000 yards, won't we all become bomb-and-gouge players, hitting driver-wedge into fours? That is presuming a standard par of 72, with standard three, four, and five-par holes.

Why assume in your words a “standard par of 72”? I can’t think of any of the venerated 6,000 yard courses that have par of more than 70.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I was surprised when I thought of this course to find its less than 4600, par 68 and whenever I hit driver I gave myself more trouble!


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,72928.msg1751463.html#msg1751463

Love it.

[Brian Finn]

Cape Arundel is my favorite example of this type of course in the United States.  5,859 yards from the back tees with a par of 69.  It's an easy walk, which can be played rather quickly without rushing.  There is wonderful land, tons of variety, and it requires thoughtful play on every shot. 

[Dave Doxey]

Slow players are the problem.   One slow group will back up the course.


Course length, walking, or the number of clubs is not the major cause and changes there will not eliminate slow play. 


Golfer education might help.  Ready golf?

[Brian Finn]

Slow players are the problem.   One slow group will back up the course.

Course length, walking, or the number of clubs is not the major cause and changes there will not eliminate slow play. 

Golfer education might help.  Ready golf?

Player behavior will always have the largest impact on pace of play, but design does play a role.  Since courses have continued to get longer, take up more space, and often have long gaps between holes, the 'starting point' (the portion dictated by the layout) for pace of play has suffered.  The fact that the most innovative course architect in the current generation has re-introduced this concept could potentially impact the next X# of new courses to be built.  There are many old courses that fit the mold, one way or another, but a return to these principles would certainly be welcome.

[Kalen Braley]

Unless you have the course to yourself, I just don't understand the 3 hour round wish list item.

For the vast majority of golfers you will always have people in front of you and at this point, Id think most public venues are just trying to figure out how to maintain 4 hour trips with a full sheet, much less 3.  KAG = Keep Achievable Goals 

[Stewart Abramson]

The notion of "not having to wait" begs the question of me: why don't you join a private club?

Cost

[Mike_Clayton]

Clayts


Would it be better if 14 clubs were reduced to 10 and everyone carries their bag.


Less clubs would bring back more interesting shotmaking


Cheers
Ben

Ben - the manufacturers are going crazy about rolling back the ball. Can you imagine how they'd feel about selling us four fewer clubs?!


And we can all play with ten if we want to. But - for the pros, most of them only need 10 clubs given middle irons into par 4s and largely extinct.
Mac O'Grady did finish 42nd in the European Tour money list in 1982 playing the whole season with 8 clubs - including 3rd in the British PGA behind Langer and Jacklin. One of golf's underrated achievements.

[Duncan Cheslett]

But - for the pros, most of them only need 10 clubs given middle irons into par 4s and largely extinct.

Pro golf would be far more interesting and entertaining if players were restricted to a hybrid, a couple of irons, a wedge, and a putter.


Club golf would be more enjoyable with the same, and 5000 yard courses.

[Adam Lawrence]

1. I don't understand the obsession with getting off the course as quickly as possible. I'm coming around to thinking that you hour-obsessed golfers should get in shape and play speed golf;

When you can play faster golf, you can play more golf.

There's a piece somewhere by Dr MacKenzie bemoaning the fact that slow play and longer courses have meant that a day's golf is now only 36 holes, whereas, before WW1, it was generally 54.

[Sean_A]

Clayts


Would it be better if 14 clubs were reduced to 10 and everyone carries their bag.


Less clubs would bring back more interesting shotmaking


Cheers
Ben

Ben - the manufacturers are going crazy about rolling back the ball. Can you imagine how they'd feel about selling us four fewer clubs?!


And we can all play with ten if we want to. But - for the pros, most of them only need 10 clubs given middle irons into par 4s and largely extinct.
Mac O'Grady did finish 42nd in the European Tour money list in 1982 playing the whole season with 8 clubs - including 3rd in the British PGA behind Langer and Jacklin. One of golf's underrated achievements.

I would push for 8 clubs between 15 and 45 loft. The putter is exempt from the loft restriction. Manufacturers would hate losing all that easy sell of wedges, but I am confident they could find ways to create more clubs between 15 and 45. Club whores will be club whores. They buy far more than 14 now. You think they won’t buy far more than 8? I can see specialised bags for individual courses and weather.


Ciao

[Tim Martin]

I get having less than fourteen clubs but don’t see the need to restrict the lofts. If the limit is eight that’s fine but let the player pick what he wants to carry in the way of loft/club. Almost everyone wants to hit driver and less skilled players are going to have a very difficult time trying to hit a 45 degree pitching wedge out of a flash faced bunker.

[Sean_A]

I get having less than fourteen clubs but don’t see the need to restrict the lofts. If the limit is eight that’s fine but let the player pick what he wants to carry in the way of loft/club. Almost everyone wants to hit driver and less skilled players are going to have a very difficult time trying to hit a 45 degree pitching wedge out of a flash faced bunker.

Sorry. The game is bifurcated so I am just thinking of these restrictions for elite players. I am selfish and want to see more and better shot making when watching golf on tv.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

I get having less than fourteen clubs but don’t see the need to restrict the lofts. If the limit is eight that’s fine but let the player pick what he wants to carry in the way of loft/club. Almost everyone wants to hit driver and less skilled players are going to have a very difficult time trying to hit a 45 degree pitching wedge out of a flash faced bunker.

Sorry. The game is bifurcated so I am just thinking of these restrictions for elite players. I am selfish and want to see more and better shot making when watching golf on tv.

Ciao

Sean-I wasn’t clear on who your post targeted. If it’s pros/elite players only then I get it.

[Simon Barrington]

1. I don't understand the obsession with getting off the course as quickly as possible. I'm coming around to thinking that you hour-obsessed golfers should get in shape and play speed golf;

When you can play faster golf, you can play more golf.

There's a piece somewhere by Dr MacKenzie bemoaning the fact that slow play and longer courses have meant that a day's golf is now only 36 holes, whereas, before WW1, it was generally 54.

In the 1900 Open at St Andrews the average round time for all competitors was 2hrs 45 mins.

[Tim Martin]

1. I don't understand the obsession with getting off the course as quickly as possible. I'm coming around to thinking that you hour-obsessed golfers should get in shape and play speed golf;

When you can play faster golf, you can play more golf.

There's a piece somewhere by Dr MacKenzie bemoaning the fact that slow play and longer courses have meant that a day's golf is now only 36 holes, whereas, before WW1, it was generally 54.

In the 1900 Open at St Andrews the average round time for all competitors was 2hrs 45 mins.

Simon-Let me preface my anecdote by stating that I truly hate slow play. A few years ago I showed up to watch the final of the Connecticut State Amateur. The identity of the players and the venue are not central to the story and I would only add it was a Golden Age course. The format was 36 holes contested at match play starting at 7:30 a.m. I lasted for two holes with an elapsed time of forty minutes and walked in. Although the match went the distance with the victor winning one up they didn’t finish until 5:30 which included a lunch break after 18 holes. I felt for the committee guys that were forced to be out there for roughly ten hours on a very hot day. Excruciating to watch even for two holes.

[Thomas Dai]

In the 1900 Open at St Andrews the average round time for all competitors was 2hrs 45 mins.

I wonder what the average number of clubs was?*
Atb


* allowing for spare clubs carried in case of breakages.

[Simon Barrington]

In the 1900 Open at St Andrews the average round time for all competitors was 2hrs 45 mins.

I wonder what the average number of clubs was?*
Atb


* allowing for spare clubs carried in case of breakages.

Braid used 8 generally, when the 14 Club Rule was being discussed he advocated for 10

[Simon Barrington]

"Simon-Let me preface my anecdote by stating that I truly hate slow play. A few years ago I showed up to watch the final of the Connecticut State Amateur. The identity of the players and the venue are not central to the story and I would only add it was a Golden Age course. The format was 36 holes contested at match play starting at 7:30 a.m. I lasted for two holes with an elapsed time of forty minutes and walked in. Although the match went the distance with the victor winning one up they didn’t finish until 5:30 which included a lunch break after 18 holes. I felt for the committee guys that were forced to be out there for roughly ten hours on a very hot day. Excruciating to watch even for two holes. "

Zzzzz...that's just awful (and no doubt on a clear course too)