The End Of An Era At Brora?

[BHoover]

Are people really going to skip Brora if the cows are gone? I detect a sentiment from some that they are a magical creature that if removed will adversely impact the experience. I don’t understand the attachment and the argument that they have always been there doesn’t sway me.

I played Brora in August. I thought it was spectacular and it had nothing to do with the livestock. Yes, the livestock was a curious and interesting touch, but it certainly was not the reason why I loved the experience. The member/caddie for one of the guys in the foursome mentioned to us why the membership was hoping to remove the livestock and it made perfect sense to me. I think the course will only get better as a result, particularly the ability to remove the electric fences around the greens. I absolutely will make the journey to Brora again in the future (hopefully before too long). The highland cattle and sheep are a fun quirk, but not seeing them on the course will in no way impact how I feel about playing Brora.

[Chris Hughes]

...I received a vote and had I voted I would’ve voted to remove the livestock from the golf course due almost totally in part to two things. 1) that’s what the staff seemed to want and 2) the course manager’s input was very persuasive.
 

Begs the question of who sets policy?


But, in the end I abstained.


Depending on how the bylaws are written a no-vote (abstention) could constitute a NO vote.


Good golf trumps nostalgia and the case was properly made that the golf would benefit.


Denuding a club of characteristics that make-up/constitute "nostalgia" is a very slippery slope...     ("nostalgia" = culture & history)

Are people really going to skip Brora if the cows are gone?


On the margin, absolutely.

Rephrasing your question, has anyone ever skipped/not-played Brora because the livestock is present? 

Net/net, the livestock attract play and set the club apart -- it's undeniable. 

[Tim Martin]

...I received a vote and had I voted I would’ve voted to remove the livestock from the golf course due almost totally in part to two things. 1) that’s what the staff seemed to want and 2) the course manager’s input was very persuasive.
 

Begs the question of who sets policy?


But, in the end I abstained.


Depending on how the bylaws are written a no-vote (abstention) could constitute a NO vote.


Good golf trumps nostalgia and the case was properly made that the golf would benefit.


Denuding a club of characteristics that make-up/constitute "nostalgia" is a very slippery slope...     ("nostalgia" = culture & history)

Are people really going to skip Brora if the cows are gone?


On the margin, absolutely.

Rephrasing your question, has anyone ever skipped/not-played Brora because the livestock is present? 

Net/net, the livestock attract play and set the club apart -- it's undeniable. 

I purposely differentiated the cows from the sheep. For all those that are fans of Brora please chime in if you will pass going forward when and if they are removed.

[Sean_A]

I already stated that I wouldn’t avoid Brora sans livestock. I stopped by a few years ago after a long break. Lovely course.

Ciao

[Ryan Book]

Received an insightful comment on social media from a recent player, adding insight to the legalities of the process:


"I played with a board member the other day and found out that even after the purchase, which was only L70,000 or something, good on the land owners, the crofts retain rights to croft the land.  The issue was surrounding maintenance and usage. I believe each croft had rights to 5 cows or 20 sheep. The croft's started to take the piss and the herd numbers swelled. This cost them hugely in maintenance, especially the daily shit shoveling. They tried to sort it out with the crofts to reduce the numbers but to no avail. It went to a local council tribunal and because the contract was broken by the crofts, the council could only really remove their rights."


<A croft is apparently a "small, rented farm.">

[Ira Fishman]

It absolutely is a decision for the members, but we do know that members sometimes make unfortunate ones. I agree with Simon that a “keep the sheep” option would have been worth presenting. Alas, I probably will not make it back to Brora so at the end of the day, it really is not my business.


But I have three professional golf photos in my study, and one is the 17th hole at Brora with the sheep grazing in the rough.


I sincerely hope the decision works for the course and club.

[Simon Barrington]

It absolutely is a decision for the members, but we do know that members sometimes make unfortunate ones. I agree with Simon that a “keep the sheep” option would have been worth presenting. Alas, I probably will not make it back to Brora so at the end of the day, it really is not my business.

But I have three professional golf photos in my study, and one is the 17th hole at Brora with the sheep grazing in the rough.

I sincerely hope the decision works for the course and club.

It also amazes me how adept some Boards/Committees are at presenting members with fait a complis resolutions without pre-consultation and genuine debate (no knowledge of if this is the case here, but have experience elsewhere that beggars belief)

If they want to get a certain answer then asking the right closed question (without any alternatives or meaningful debate) is the way to get it...

[Niall C]

[size=0px]Rephrasing your question, has anyone ever skipped/not-played Brora because the livestock is present? [/size][/color][/size][size=0px]Net/net, the livestock attract play and set the club apart -- it's undeniable.


Chris


Let me put this to you. The head greenkeeper and it seems the members, thinks that the course will be better without animals grazing. If that turns out to be correct it is possible and indeed likely that they will get more visitors (not that that is necessarily the primary concern of the members, they just want a better course presumably) because people want to play better courses irrespective of whether they have sheep roaming about. Surely that's a win/win for the members as well as the greenkeeper ?


Niall



[/size]

[Charlie Goerges]

If this decision ends up being the wrong one, is there anything stopping them from reversing it later and bringing some/all of the livestock back?

[Chris Hughes]

[size=0px]Rephrasing your question, has anyone ever skipped/not-played Brora because the livestock is present? [/size]Net/net, the livestock attract play and set the club apart -- it's undeniable.


Chris


Let me put this to you. The head greenkeeper and it seems the members, thinks that the course will be better without animals grazing. If that turns out to be correct it is possible and indeed likely that they will get more visitors (not that that is necessarily the primary concern of the members, they just want a better course presumably) because people want to play better courses irrespective of whether they have sheep roaming about. Surely that's a win/win for the members as well as the greenkeeper ?

Niall

Niall, I disagree.

There is no pent-up "demand" that will be released once the livestock is removed. 

It absolutely is a decision for the members, but we do know that members sometimes make unfortunate ones. I agree with Simon that a “keep the sheep” option would have been worth presenting. Alas, I probably will not make it back to Brora so at the end of the day, it really is not my business.

But I have three professional golf photos in my study, and one is the 17th hole at Brora with the sheep grazing in the rough.

I sincerely hope the decision works for the course and club.

It also amazes me how adept some Boards/Committees are at presenting members with fait a complis resolutions without pre-consultation and genuine debate (no knowledge of if this is the case here, but have experience elsewhere that beggars belief)

If they want to get a certain answer then asking the right closed question (without any alternatives or meaningful debate) is the way to get it...

Good points Simon.  I'd add that based on what I've read the primary agent for change in this case really seems to be the staff.  No bueno...

[Ben Sims]

Good points Simon.  I'd add that based on what I've read the primary agent for for change in this case really seems to be the staff.  No bueno...

Why? That James and his team are tired of shoveling crap every morning is more than enough reason for me to support. But there are other reasons too. Not that anyone here save for a couple of posters seems to care.


For a website that collectively purports to appreciate what turf professionals do, the desire to have cheeky instagram pics with sheep in them sure seems to be driving some weird opinions.

[Niall C]

Niall, I disagree.

There is no pent-up "demand" that will be released once the livestock is removed. 

Chris


I agree there's no pent-up demand. No-one I know is waiting for the livestock to be removed before they play the course. My point however is that if the course improves, gets a better ranking then additional demand will be created.


Niall

[David_Tepper]

Aside from the Covid years I have been fortunate enough to spend 5 to 7 weeks a year in the Highlands for the past 20+years. I have probably played Brora 2 or 3 times a year when I have been there.

For me the "charm" and novelty of seeing sheep and cattle on the course the course wore off long time ago. If anything I will likely play the course more often when they are gone.

Not too long ago there was a thread here about Brora. I commented that, given the chance, the Brora members would prefer to see the livestock removed from their course. Looks like I was right about that.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,73114.msg1754276.html#msg1754276
 

 

[Chris Hughes]

Good points Simon.  I'd add that based on what I've read the primary agent for for change in this case really seems to be the staff.  No bueno...

Why? That James and his team are tired of shoveling crap every morning is more than enough reason for me to support. But there are other reasons too. Not that anyone here save for a couple of posters seems to care.


Presumably the staff understood the expectations of the job, when they accepted. 

Reminds me of a club I know where the members are hankering to switch to bermuda but the (newish) super is a bent guy. 

Told a member I know "you switch to bermuda you're gonna lose Joe"...

...member said "but in the interview process he said he would execute on and maintain whatever the members want" -- they always do.


For a website that collectively purports to appreciate what turf professionals do, the desire to have cheeky instagram pics with sheep in them sure seems to be driving some weird opinions.


For me preserving the culture & history of unique/iconic clubs supersedes all -- guarantee you there's another highly qualified "turf professional" out there eager to have the job as is.

[Chris Hughes]

Niall, I disagree.

There is no pent-up "demand" that will be released once the livestock is removed. 

Chris


I agree there's no pent-up demand. No-one I know is waiting for the livestock to be removed before they play the course. My point however is that if the course improves, gets a better ranking then additional demand will be created.


Niall

I disagree.


IMO , marginally better turf conditions (if they even improve at all) won't (shouldn't) result in any sort of material move in the "rankings". 


I'm curious, what are your expectations?


Brora currently ranks #63 in the UK/IRL list published by Golf Magazine -- if they get rid of the livestock how big of a "rankings" jump are you predicting?  Will Brora jump to #25 in front of Kingsbarns?


Again, was Brora to move up 10 spots (unlikely) or even 20 spots (highly unlikely) as a result of removing the livestock -- I will bet on a net/net basis "demand" will drop as a result of denuding the Club of the culture/history that made it unique.


Has the vote been tallied yet?

[Ben Sims]

Chris,


You seem to be of the mind that what makes Brora most unique is the livestock. I couldn’t disagree more. There’s distinct architecture and a worthy place as clearly one of Braid’s best to consider. Sheep don’t make Brora.


I also think it’s a bad argument to compare livestock presence to an American club’s Bermuda vs bent conundrum. They're not even comparable.


Also, yes, vote is over. The club voted to remove the livestock.

[Chris Hughes]

Chris,


You seem to be of the mind that what makes Brora most unique is the livestock. I couldn’t disagree more. There’s distinct architecture and a worthy place as clearly one of Braid’s best to consider. Sheep don’t make Brora.

Presumably good architecture is prevalent at all the top "ranked" courses/clubs in Scotland -- that said, the livestock undeniably sets Brora apart from the rest of the herd, period. 

(note: for every 1 of you who identifies the course with Braid, there are 100's who know it for the livestock -- architecture wonks don't pay the bills)


I also think it’s a bad argument to compare livestock presence to an American club’s Bermuda vs bent conundrum. They're not even comparable.

You've missed the point.  It isn't about livestock or grass-type, but rather who is driving the bus -- the staff or the members?

Also, yes, vote is over. The club voted to remove the livestock.


That's a crying shame...    

OK, let' fire up the "rankings" tracker (currently #63) and see whether or not (i) the club moves up, and (ii) if so does it allow the club to jack-up the green fee tariffs (£160 in 2025) by 100% or more -- awesome. 

[Thomas Dai]

Jeez I hate multi-coloured posts even more so when there is a bunch of cut-n-paste involved.
Atb

[Ben Sims]

Chris,


I care not one whit about rankings and neither do a number of the members I’ve spoken with via email and text. What we all seem to agree on is 1) we want the rough to remain as is and 2) we want James and his team to be able to devote more time to course care and not repairing the walls of bunkers and burns and shoveling dung.


Not sure what else to say.

[Matt Wharton]

I first played Brora on September 30, 2021 and it was an emotional experience. I don't know how to describe it but I was moved in a way completely different than what I experienced playing the Old Course for the first time in 2019 or even Royal Dornoch on that same trip to the Highlands in 2021. I came home with a membership application for Brora but ultimately joined Royal Dornoch, but I digress.

I have returned to the Highlands on two other occasions and made sure to experience Brora each trip. Over the past three years it has been a pleasure getting to know Brora's course manager, James MacBeath. We teed it up together earlier this year in Phoenix, AZ when he attended the GCSAA Conference and Show, and he joined me and my wife for our round at Brora during our Highlands trip in September this year.

I have listened for some time to James talk about the team and the laborious task of cleaning poo every single day to begin the course preparation procedures. I have listened to James talk about people making the journey to Brora and taking pictures of the sheep and the coos rather than pictures of the golf course. I have listened to James closely and attentively and he makes a compelling case for why Brora would want to be known for the quality James Braid designed golf course and immaculate conditions he and his team produce without the presence of sheep and coos.

But I also know if not for the sheep and coos I cannot say with certainty my original experience would have been as impactful. I truly felt that day not just transported physically miles away from the stresses of everyday life, but transported spiritually through time, and I am certain the sheep and coos played an important role in that experience.

I for one am conflicted, but whatever they decide I will forever play Brora when I am in the Highlands, whether or not the sheep and/or coos are present. But I secretly hope they are.

Thanks for that balance, and it is of course the members' decision (although from another post the number of members actually voting seems very small indeed, less than 100).
 
But the key factor here seems to be an ambitious Course Manger seeking "immaculate conditions" i.e. the opposite of what some on here and many visitors laud at Brora.
I do not criticise his ambition nor professional desire to produce the best surface he can, but it seems odd to me for him to seek inputs and learning at the GCSAA Conference in the US, when he could/should actually be exporting his knowledge of naturalised and environmental stewardship (as has been the case at Brora for over a century) to the US.
Brambles is leading the way stateside, and Kingarroch in Scotland too.
There are many other historic examples over here.

The information flow and desire to mimic what is overseas, seems the wrong way round.

IMHO other courses can learn from Brora and other sheep grazed courses, especially relevant to rough management as Sean says.

N.B. I do sympathise with the Cow-pat issue, but I don't believe the membership were offered options of either:
a) keep the sheep, but lose the cows
or
b) keep the cows in non-playing areas

Perhaps there are not sufficiently strong people on the Green/Main Committee, who understand what is unique and needs to be protected, to resist such moves (certainly such a dramatic change, rather than incremental)
But perhaps the constituents of such committees have changed a lot since COVID and we know there has been a large in-bound membership at Brora (which of course helped its survival and now land ownership).

Things change, but not always for the better (time will tell on this one).

Simon,


I was not implying the team at Brora and/or their course manager were striving to produce immaculate conditions at the expense of doing what is right. On the contrary, James is a highly experienced links course manager and he understands better than anyone what is best for the golf course at Brora within a sustainable framework and the environment. The fact he elected to attend a golf course management conference in the U.S. only means he is willing to learn. I too have attended BIGGA's conference in the U.K. on two occasions for the same reason, to learn. There is much information sharing that takes place at these events that one can find helpful and resourceful for their golf course, sometimes you find helpful information in the least likely of places.


Having read through many of the other responses since my last reply, I think I have yet to play the golf course enough times to have reached the point where the livestock becomes novelty. But I think like David, I too would reach that point sometime in the near future. I must admit, not having to step across an electric wire near the putting green would be nice someday.


Cheers,

[Simon Barrington]

"I have listened to James closely and attentively and he makes a compelling case for why Brora would want to be known for the quality James Braid designed golf course and immaculate conditions he and his team produce without the presence of sheep and coos."...

..."I was not implying the team at Brora and/or their course manager were striving to produce immaculate conditions at the expense of doing what is right."

Thanks Matt,

Appreciate the sentiment, but I was reading your words (above), literally, and not by implication.

I have only heard positive words about the current (dare I say "immaculate") state of both the agronomy and playing surfaces at Brora which the clearly very capable James and his team produce.

This praise is especially the case for the differentiated livestock-managed rough "through the green", which many laud as far better than unvarying machine cut rough. I have some doubt that its special characteristics can be replicated mechanically across the entire course without signifciant inputs (physical, machine, fuel, man-hours, and potentially chemical?) especially in the longer-term.
If anyone as a successful example across a whole golf course in this, without livestock or increased resources, let's hear it.

The underlying nub here is, there are seemingly issues about the relationship breaking down between the Club and those neighbours with historic with grazing rights, post the club's ownership, and the Cow-dung issue has allegedly worsened (as their numbers have apparently grown beyond their mutual agreement).

The removal of all livestock is a pretty blunt instrument, especially when the quality of all playing surfaces is not in question (infact these are lauded by visitors) I had hoped it was really a negotiating tactic by the Board/Committee, but seemingly not.

I am not at all sure it was great PR (locally & to the wider world) either, but what is done is done.

"I must admit, not having to step across an electric wire near the putting green would be nice someday."

Geofencing collars may be closer to commercial usage than many think...perhaps a trial of these on the sheep might have been useful before throwing them out with the Cow-dung! These might be useful to manage Coos away from playing corridors too?

Cheers

[Thomas Dai]

Worth a watch particularly for those who haven’t had the pleasure of a visit to Brora nor experienced Highland cattle or just wish for a reminder of how delightful the Brora experience complete with coooos is -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipSg8Pddr98
Atb

[Chris Hughes]

Worth a watch particularly for those who haven’t had the pleasure of a visit to Brora nor experienced Highland cattle or just wish for a reminder of how delightful the Brora experience complete with coooos is -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipSg8Pddr98
Atb

Thank you.  Awesome.

[Chris Hughes]

"I have listened to James closely and attentively and he makes a compelling case for why Brora would want to be known for the quality James Braid designed golf course and immaculate conditions he and his team produce without the presence of sheep and coos."...

..."I was not implying the team at Brora and/or their course manager were striving to produce immaculate conditions at the expense of doing what is right."

Thanks Matt,

Appreciate the sentiment, but I was reading your words (above), literally, and not by implication.

I have only heard positive words about the current (dare I say "immaculate") state of both the agronomy and playing surfaces at Brora which the clearly very capable James and his team produce.

This praise is especially the case for the differentiated livestock-managed rough "through the green", which many laud as far better than unvarying machine cut rough. I have some doubt that its special characteristics can be replicated mechanically across the entire course without signifciant inputs (physical, machine, fuel, man-hours, and potentially chemical?) especially in the longer-term.
If anyone as a successful example across a whole golf course in this, without livestock or increased resources, let's hear it.

The underlying nub here is, there are seemingly issues about the relationship breaking down between the Club and those neighbours with historic with grazing rights, post the club's ownership, and the Cow-dung issue has allegedly worsened (as their numbers have apparently grown beyond their mutual agreement).

The removal of all livestock is a pretty blunt instrument, especially when the quality of all playing surfaces is not in question (infact these are lauded by visitors) I had hoped it was really a negotiating tactic by the Board/Committee, but seemingly not.

I am not at all sure it was great PR (locally & to the wider world) either, but what is done is done.

"I must admit, not having to step across an electric wire near the putting green would be nice someday."

Geofencing collars may be closer to commercial usage than many think...perhaps a trial of these on the sheep might have been useful before throwing them out with the Cow-dung! These might be useful to manage Coos away from playing corridors too?

Cheers

A succinct and on-point recap, good onya mate.

[David_Tepper]

I question the notion that the greens staff are/were the ones driving the change to remove the livestock from the course. It would not surprise me at all if a sizable number of club members have been wanting to do this for many years.