The Conspicuous Absence of Hanse from Keiser Developments.

[Steven Wade]

The title pretty much covers it, but I'll elaborate a bit. Does anyone else find it strange (or perhaps know any reason) that Dream Golf and Hanse have never worked together? Four golf developments and  *checks notes* ... a whole lot of golf courses and Hanse/Wagner not on any of them. I realize that there are many other golf course architects who have also not designed one of their courses, but when a member of the current "big three" hasn't been included in any of the current or future plans, it makes me wonder. I think I remember talk of Hanse doing one of the Sand Valley courses, but then he obviously didn't.


I'm not trying to cultivate any drama here, and I'm aware that a participant here does work closely with the Keisers. I just wondered if there was a story behind this other than, "They just have their small core (no pun intended) of architects that they like work with."

[David Schofield]

The list of architects that have not worked for the Keisers is quite long.

[Tom_Doak]

Maybe they think David Kidd is the third guy in the “big 3”?  For sure, there is some loyalty there due to past success, and a comfort level in having a good rapport already.


Actually Gil was alll l lined up to do the Bandon Muni if they’d gotten the land swap done, so that was just a bad break.  But I do know that Mr Keiser (Sr) wasn’t a fan of the wild greens at Streamsong Black, and that bumped Gil down on the pecking order for a while. 


I was further down their list for a while, myself, until Mike saw Tara Iti and remembered what we were capable of.  So the pecking order is always in flux. Not to mention the fact that Michael and Chris are very interested in the abilities of Bill’s associates and mine, and once one of us has anchored a new facility, they don’t need big names for the rest of the courses at Rodeo Dunes.

[Steven Wade]

But I do know that Mr Keiser (Sr) wasn’t a fan of the wild greens at Streamsong Black, and that bumped Gil down on the pecking order for a while. 


I was further down their list for a while, myself, until Mike saw Tara Iti and remembered what we were capable of.  So the pecking order is always in flux. Not to mention the fact that Michael and Chris are very interested in the abilities of Bill’s associates and mine, and once one of us has anchored a new facility, they don’t need big names for the rest of the courses at Rodeo Dunes.

Thank you. This makes total sense and I appreciate you commenting. I hoped you might offer some insights, but also felt it might not be possible for you to answer.


Again, I realize (as was pointed out to me in the first reply, as well as in my original post) that most architects haven’t built a Keiser course. A few buddies of mine and I have discussed this topic in chats or after rounds and we always wondered if there was some history, philosophical differences, or just that he’d never been considered? Perhaps if the Bandon Muni had come together and gone well, he’d be somewhere in the pecking order? Thanks again.

[Matt_Cohn]

(I have no inside information on this.) Perhaps it's just that Doak and Coore+Crenshaw have been consistently better until very recently. On Golf Magazine's new list, Hanse has 3 in the Top 100—they opened in 2018, 2021, and 2023. Doak's courses on that list go back to 2001, and Coore+Crenshaw's to 1999. Perhaps Keiser felt that Hanse's original designs, at least up until the last few years, just weren't as reliably good as those other two firms.

[Matthew Galloway]

But I do know that Mr Keiser (Sr) wasn’t a fan of the wild greens at Streamsong Black, and that bumped Gil down on the pecking order for a while. 

Can confirm this. I had the pleasure of caddying for Mr Keiser (sr) that afternoon he played Streamsong Black with 3 of his retail golfer friends and got to overhear a few of the conversations they had about a few of the greens (14 lasted a while). That day remains in the top 5 of my looping experiences getting the pleasure to get to know Mr Keiser a little.

[Steven Wade]

But I do know that Mr Keiser (Sr) wasn’t a fan of the wild greens at Streamsong Black, and that bumped Gil down on the pecking order for a while. 

Can confirm this. I had the pleasure of caddying for Mr Keiser (sr) that afternoon he played Streamsong Black with 3 of his retail golfer friends and got to overhear a few of the conversations they had about a few of the greens (14 lasted a while). That day remains in the top 5 of my looping experiences getting the pleasure to get to know Mr Keiser a little.

This would be an incredible loop to eavesdrop on.

[Scott Weersing]

Hanse does not get/win projects for resorts or retail golfers. He did Black at Streamsong, No 4 at Pinehurst, and Mossy Oak. These are the only three resort courses. Most of Hanse work is renovating courses for majors and then the new design, PGA Frisco, which was designed for the PGA championship.


So why does Hanse not get or build resort courses?
The current trend is for resort course to build fun courses. I am not sure which Hanse course is the most fun.


There are not really that many new resort courses being built besides Keiser/Dream golf.


Hanse is too busy with renovations. [size=78%]Hanse is working on a new course at Rock Creek Park in Washington DC. And he is working on Cobbs Creek. [/size]

[cary lichtenstein]

I think this thread should be deleted IMHO.

[David_Tepper]

Scott W. -

Hanse/Wagner designed/built Castle Stuart/Cabot Highland, which was certainly created for the retail/daily fee golfer.

DT

[Kalen Braley]

I think this thread should be deleted IMHO.

I think its a fair question, especially when considering:

1) Hanse's entire body of work, even if Streamsong was over the top
2) Mike being at the top of his game for destination golf, he's gotta know Gil does great stuff

[Brent Carlson]

Hanse does not get/win projects for resorts or retail golfers. He did Black at Streamsong, No 4 at Pinehurst, and Mossy Oak. These are the only three resort courses. Most of Hanse work is renovating courses for majors and then the new design, PGA Frisco, which was designed for the PGA championship.


So why does Hanse not get or build resort courses?
The current trend is for resort course to build fun courses. I am not sure which Hanse course is the most fun.


There are not really that many new resort courses being built besides Keiser/Dream golf.


Hanse is too busy with renovations. [size=78%]Hanse is working on a new course at Rock Creek Park in Washington DC. And he is working on Cobbs Creek. [/size]

Add in Rustic Canyon and Soule Park as courses for retail golfers.

[Pete Lavallee]

I can not think of a single course that is more fun to play than Rustic Canyon; and it was his first solo design! Let’s face it “Dream Golf Resorts” are looking for repeat play on an extended trip where challenge might trump fun. Rustic Canyon, Soule Park and Tallgrass were all very similar and tons of fun without being overly taxing for retail golfers. He just hasn’t been asked to build that kind of course at a resort yet. I haven’t played Streamsong Black but that doesn’t seem to fall into the same bucket as his three public venues.

[Joe Zucker]

Let’s face it “Dream Golf Resorts” are looking for repeat play on an extended trip where challenge might trump fun.

I don't know if I agree with this premise and I don't know if Mike Keiser does too. Especially with him leaning into David Kidd and his career transition away from tough courses (Tetherow) to fun and "easy" courses (Mammoth Dunes).  If Hanse is good at fun courses (I've only played Applebrook and the Rio Olympic course of his original designs), then it seems like he would be a great fit for Dream Golf, as I think Keiser and team lean into fun.


However, Pacific Dunes is arguably the most successful and highly rated course in the Dream Golf portfolio and I find that to be a very difficult track.  So maybe challenge is higher up on the priority list than I think.

[Ira Fishman]

I have zero idea why Gil Hanse has not been asked to design a Dream Golf golf course yet. I do want to offer a note of caution about one’s assumptions. The visionary behind the Dunes Club and Bandon Dunes is Mike Keiser who is the father of Michael Kaiser and his brother who are driving the expansion of Dream Golf. I have zero idea how much Mr. Keiser is or is not involved in the decisions about Dream Golf architect selections, but we should not conflate the two M. Kaisers when we engage in our speculation.

[Tom_Doak]

I have zero idea why Gil Hanse has not been asked to design a Dream Golf golf course yet. I do want to offer a note of caution about one’s assumptions. The visionary behind the Dunes Club and Bandon Dunes is Mike Keiser who is the father of Michael Kaiser and his brother who are driving the expansion of Dream Golf. I have zero idea how much Mr. Keiser is or is not involved in the decisions about Dream Golf architect selections, but we should not conflate the two M. Kaisers when we engage in our speculation.

Correct.


Maybe next time we could have a thread about why I don’t get hired for the jobs that Gil does.  In the end it usually just comes down to personalities and comfort level.


I answered the original question because it had a lot to do with Streamsong, and I appreciate the caddie chiming in to confirm the story.  Streamsong, incidentally, was also where I fell out of favor with Mr Keiser for a while . . . Mike thought my greens on the Blue course were too severe.  Gil and I commiserated about that at one point - our client for Streamsong was very happy with both courses and did not want flatter greens - but Mr Keiser likes what he likes and sometimes forgets we are flexible in what we build.


Mike also felt Jim Urbina had been a big part of my success, and didn’t know how to handle it once Jim was no longer working for me.  It took seeing Tara Iti to remind Mike what I could do, just like seeing Gamble Sands was key for David Kidd’s comeback.


Luckily my relationship with Michael is stronger than that.  I know there are 100 architects who’d like to do his next project, but I’m glad that he is having multiple opportunities to see what my associates can do.  The day is coming where they will replace me on the pecking order - my only defense is to keep delivering great work and make it easy for him to stay with the incumbent!