Tobacco Road Greens

[Ryan Book]

Decided not to revive the "Tobacco Road - one dimensional" thread, sorry. Having recently played at Tobacco Road, I agreed with many that the course has about as much outward personality as any. I noticed, however, that the greens frequently pounded upon the punchbowl technique. I joked to a pal that I might be much more friendly to all the gathering effects when I played Pine Needles the next day.

Are there logical reasons? Considering a number of blinded approaches, and that high handicappers may suffer enough with the hazards, sure. But in many instances, such as the many figure-eight greens, at least half of the green featured a bowl effect. Long story short, I found the continuous use of this approach overplayed. Would have enjoyed a few more greens with internal contouring a la No. 2 (which itself features a punchbowl effect, but one less obvious for its internal attractions). Is such rampant use of gathering greens as obnoxious as a course full front-to-rear solely with push-up green? No, but repetitive nonetheless.


I am open, as ever, to pushback on this.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

How do you define a punchbowl green, Ryan?

I just went through the holes and I don't know that I see as many punchbowls as you do. There are slopes that will roll the ball onto the green, but to me, a punchbowl has four, three, or at least two sides that will do this (two can get iffy, IMO, as it could just be a back and a right side or something, with a false front and left… and that probably wouldn't be a "punchbowl" to me).

For example, do you see the first as a punchbowl? I don't. You can bounce or roll the ball on from short left, but the ball will funnel off the back right pretty easily, too, as the whole topography around that green is in that direction (front left to back right). That isn't a punchbowl to me.

No, it's not raised greens like at Pine Needles or #2, but I don't know that I agree that TR is full of punchbowl greens.

[Ryan Book]

I would define a "punchbowl" as a putting surface where at least three edges slope inward into the putting surface, rather than sitting level or sloping away outward. For the examples you mentioned (referencing my yardage guide to confirm)...


At No. 1, both the surrounding fairway and greens themselves feed inward at the front, left, and back. It sits level with the right. That you disagree with this being a punchbowl is a matter of interpretation. It's certainly not quite as drastic as many Raynorian entries (e.g. Fishers Island) however it also offers more gathering coverage than some Raynors (e.g. Yeamans Hall). Your point that a ball can leave the right side, thus disqualifying it as a punchbowl case, is a legitimate argument. Not one I agree with, but a legitimate one!


At No. 2, looks can be deceiving because it appears like a false front, due to the fairway fall-off at the front. However as soon as one reaches the front of the putting surface, the green itself flows down toward its center, and this is true of the back and right sides as well. I'll note that I am beyond satisfied with this instance.


Using my own definition, No. 9 is disqualified because it only slopes in from the left and right sides. But with a green that long, that's a vast majority of the edge coverage. Somewhat like Potter Stewart's take on pornography, I will argue that "I know punchbowl when I see it."


As a counter to give you an example that I am NOT referencing, the feeder slope to the right of the No. 4 green is NOT an example. In that instance, the bold player may fly directly at the stick, risking the chance of landing in the waste left, in part because there is no inward slope on the left side to give you an airbag bounce. A more risk-averse player can try his hand at guiding the ball down via the feeder slope, however...less guaranteed accuracy but less risk as well. On No. 11, however, if you choose to take a direct line over that deep pit ahead of the green, the putting surface slopes inward to assure that if you get it there, it will move forward, not back. The latter is not a "punchbowl" green in the least, however it uses punchbowl techniques as insurance. Perhaps some would prefer to call them "feeder" techniques.

How do you define a punchbowl green, Ryan?

I just went through the holes and I don't know that I see as many punchbowls as you do. There are slopes that will roll the ball onto the green, but to me, a punchbowl has four, three, or at least two sides that will do this (two can get iffy, IMO, as it could just be a back and a right side or something, with a false front and left… and that probably wouldn't be a "punchbowl" to me).

For example, do you see the first as a punchbowl? I don't. You can bounce or roll the ball on from short left, but the ball will funnel off the back right pretty easily, too, as the whole topography around that green is in that direction (front left to back right). That isn't a punchbowl to me.

No, it's not raised greens like at Pine Needles or #2, but I don't know that I agree that TR is full of punchbowl greens.

[Ally Mcintosh]

To be honest, a punchbowl - for me - has to have the front of the green lower than the approach. The other sides are less important (but still needed in some form, especially the back).


If the front is at grade or higher than the approach, it just becomes a green with gathering slopes.


My interpretation but one more in tune with how the term was classically used as a hole name on old GB&I links.

[Sean_A]

The punch bowl green criticism is interesting. I believe most people call these areas of the greens ‘gathering’. I generally agree with Ally about the distinction. My overwhelming impression of TR’s greens was the number of narrow/long greens. They are oriented in various ways and with tweaks, but the concept is at its core the same.

Ciao

[Ryan Book]

To be honest, a punchbowl - for me - has to have the front of the green lower than the approach. The other sides are less important (but still needed in some form, especially the back).


If the front is at grade or higher than the approach, it just becomes a green with gathering slopes.


My interpretation but one more in tune with how the term was classically used as a hole name on old GB&I links.

That's an interesting distinction, and one perhaps better suited for a thread on MacRaynor versus Strantz! Seems that it would discount quite a few of that pair's examples.

[cary lichtenstein]

I played it once, absolutely loved it, shot 70, didn't find the course hard at all, perhaps you're right, the greens funneled to the hole, I don't remember the greens anymore

[Jay Mickle]

I never thought about the gathering greens but see the course as having an overall gathering/punchbowl feel . Certainly that should be expected as the course prior to it being used for golf was property used for mining sand.

[Stewart Abramson]

I don't think TR's greens can fairly be described as being predominately punchbowl or gathering. The greens have a lot of movement and in some instances sideboards or backboards. Some have several distinct sections, but whether the contours gather a ball toward a hole or away from it is very dependent on pin placement and where the ball lands. I had as many approach shots roll away from a hole as gather toward it. If you can execute the best shot to a green you can use the slopes to your advantage, but they are not punchbowl like in that approaches to another side don't work toward the hole. In any event I think it's an excellent set of greens,



Tobacco Road #2



Tobacco Road #3



Tobacco Road #3



Tobacco Road #6 view across green from left to right /url]


[url=https://flic.kr/p/2k4SuX1]
Tobacco Road #7  green from front right



Tobacco Road #7  green from front left



Tobacco Road #7  green view from back right to left



Tobacco Road #8 right half of green



Tobacco Road #8 view from front left of green



Tobacco Road #9  green



Tobacco Road #10



Tobacco Road #11 view across green



Tobacco Road #14 par 3



Tobacco Road #15 



Tobacco Road #16 slopes back to front



Tobacco Road #17 par 3 boomerang green



Tobacco Road #18 very front pin [/url]

[Peter Sayegh]

I don't think TR's greens can fairly be described as being predominately punchbowl or gathering. The greens have a lot of movement and in some instances sideboards or backboards. Some have several distinct sections, but whether the contours gather a ball toward a hole or away from it is very dependent on pin placement and where the ball lands. I had as many approach shots roll away from a hole as gather toward it. If you can execute the best shot to a green you can use the slopes to your advantage, but they are not punchbowl.

Perfectly stated Stewart. Pin location on each hole is paramount at TR.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Agree with the pin locations thing. I think the guy setting the hole locations could make life miserable quite easily on those greens. But TR is a resort course where they have a bit of difficulty with pace of play, so having people 6 putt their way around the course is just not the move.


It'd be fun to see a difficult set of pins on that course, but not if you are on a buddies golf trip or something.


I also thought 16 green did a great job of "gathering" my ball 50 yards back down into the fairway.

[Stewart Abramson]

I also thought 16 green did a great job of "gathering" my ball 50 yards back down into the fairway.

 

[Ryan Book]

Haha...No. 16 is certainly not an instance of what I described. One of the better moments of visual deception. The flag seemed to be sitting on the edge of the green's false front from so far below...turns out it was actually at the back of green, and I was looking at the slope between tiers. I played it safe and too way too much club, which as it turns out was rewarded by the downslope behind the putting surface, which generously brought it back down to the proper level.

Agree with the pin locations thing. I think the guy setting the hole locations could make life miserable quite easily on those greens. But TR is a resort course where they have a bit of difficulty with pace of play, so having people 6 putt their way around the course is just not the move.


It'd be fun to see a difficult set of pins on that course, but not if you are on a buddies golf trip or something.
 

I also thought 16 green did a great job of "gathering" my ball 50 yards back down into the fairway.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think the concave greens and features at Tobacco Road are Strantz's way of compensating for the fact that the rest of the golf course looks so intimidating and difficult, even though in reality it plays relatively friendly for moderate to skilled golfers. A lot of the new golf courses I've played in the last decade have their fair share of concave features. A few times I have come away feeling like they're pandering to mediocre golfers at the cost of providing an interesting test. Pinehurst No. 2's greens become more and more special to me all the time.

[Ryan Book]

You're absolutely correct on the first point. Your second comment is quite interesting...now I'm inclined to revisit some yardage guides from the Dream Golf portfolio and see if I've been blind to a more general trend all this time!

I think the concave greens and features at Tobacco Road are Strantz's way of compensating for the fact that the rest of the golf course looks so intimidating and difficult, even though in reality it plays relatively friendly for moderate to skilled golfers. A lot of the new golf courses I've played in the last decade have their fair share of concave features. A few times I have come away feeling like they're pandering to mediocre golfers at the cost of providing an interesting test. Pinehurst No. 2's greens become more and more special to me all the time.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Having just played there and being able to refresh my memory with this topic in mind…


1 - Slight gathering, not a punchbowl. Just front left to back right overall slope.
2 - Mild punchbowl feel, front and back and sides slope slightly inward. My memory was more just back-to-front slope but that's not the case.
3 - Not a punchbowl at all. Side slopes or back-boards (not really in the same place).
4 - Not a punchbowl. Kicker slope on the right is about it.
5 - Not a punchbowl. False fronts and backs.
6 - Not a punchbowl.
7 - Front left has a bowl, but it's not a punchbowl.
8 - Not a PB.
9 - Side slopes left and right, but it's a VERY narrow green that plays a bit wider. Not much helping front or back.
10 - Not a PB.
11 - Not a PB. Just sloping.
12 - Kicker side slopes, but not a PB.
13 - Eh. Y'all know this one. Too small with too much danger around to be a PB.
14 - No.
15 - No.
16 - Big false front, tier, some side slopes.
17 - Not a PB.
18 - No.


I think TR has a good # of holes that have some side slopes or kickers (often not super wide before you get into some bad lies that are then above the green surface, or it falls off into a bunker or something). Nothing I'd really truly call a punchbowl, though #2 comes closest I would guess.

[Ryan Book]

I have since agreed to change my verbiage. So, if we agree to use "gathering slopes" instead of "punchbowls" then I can look at my yardage guide and note all of the greens at Tobacco Road that feature gathering slopes that cover at least 75% of their respective edges, as well as several Strantz "figure eight" greens where at least one half of the green meets the same criteria. It's more than alright to still subjectively embrace Strantz's green designs but one can't objectively deny my basis for this argument .  If you do objectively deny it, please send said correspondence to Scott Brady, owner of the Precise Yardage Books, via preciseyardagebooks@gmail.com and let him know the arrows in his guides are incorrect. If I gotta figure out Flickr, so be it.


1) Slopes gather inward from front, left, right, both outside of green and from edge of green.
2) Slopes gather inward from front and back of green.
3) Not a gathering green.
4) Not a gathering green (because I agree that a kicker slope to one side of a green is very different idea) 
5) Slopes gather inward from left, back, and right, both outside of green and from edge of green.
6) The left portion of this "figure eight" green feeds to the center from front, left and back of green.
7) I wouldn't call this a gathering green although the yardage guide does suggest a gathering area at front tip.
I wouldn't call this a gathering green although the yardage guide does suggest a gathering area at back-right.
9) Slopes gather inward from left and right of green.
10) Slopes gather inward at every point except for front-left entryway.
11) Gathers inward dramatically from left, back and right on lower tier, less dramatically from left and right on back tier.
12) Gathers into the green from left, front and right sides.
13) Gathers into the green from front and back of green, but I agree with your comment that one can't expect eternal grace.
14) Front tier gathers in from front, left and back. Back tier gathers in from all four sides.
15) Left side gathers in from all but front-left corner. Right side gathers in from front, left and a decent chunk of the back.
16) I wouldn't call this a gathering green but I just now noticed the back tier of this green does actually gather in from all four sides.
17) Tough to believe, but the entirety of the front edge of this green gathers in and maybe 60% of the back edge.
18) I'll give the benefit of the doubt as this green only gathers balls in from back and left sides.

Having just played there and being able to refresh my memory with this topic in mind…


1 - Slight gathering, not a punchbowl. Just front left to back right overall slope.
2 - Mild punchbowl feel, front and back and sides slope slightly inward. My memory was more just back-to-front slope but that's not the case.
3 - Not a punchbowl at all. Side slopes or back-boards (not really in the same place).
4 - Not a punchbowl. Kicker slope on the right is about it.
5 - Not a punchbowl. False fronts and backs.
6 - Not a punchbowl.
7 - Front left has a bowl, but it's not a punchbowl.
8 - Not a PB.
9 - Side slopes left and right, but it's a VERY narrow green that plays a bit wider. Not much helping front or back.
10 - Not a PB.
11 - Not a PB. Just sloping.
12 - Kicker side slopes, but not a PB.
13 - Eh. Y'all know this one. Too small with too much danger around to be a PB.
14 - No.
15 - No.
16 - Big false front, tier, some side slopes.
17 - Not a PB.
18 - No.


I think TR has a good # of holes that have some side slopes or kickers (often not super wide before you get into some bad lies that are then above the green surface, or it falls off into a bunker or something). Nothing I'd really truly call a punchbowl, though #2 comes closest I would guess.