[Ira Fishman]

Matt,


It would cost the average club more in time and effort to calculate the variable costs involved than the cost savings to the members affected who otherwise would pay for that time and effort in additional dues.


Yes, private clubs in the US are generally for the more wealthy, but most are actually effectively small businesses that run on thin margins. They neither have the staff nor the software to implement academic pricing models. Indeed, for most, the staff are overworked and underpaid.


Ira

[Matt Schoolfield]

Matt,


It would cost the average club more in time and effort to calculate the variable costs involved than the cost savings to the members affected who otherwise would pay for that time and effort in additional dues.


Yes, private clubs in the US are generally for the more wealthy, but most are actually effectively small businesses that run on thin margins. They neither have the staff nor the software to implement academic pricing models. Indeed, for most, the staff are overworked and underpaid.


Ira

Ira,

All of this is fine, and in generally I agree, but my point still stands. Even if the costs are back-of-the-envelope guesses, then the guesses are being made in an alternate pricing structure anyway. Everyone wins as the pricing closer reflects the costs, no matter how expensive of a microscope people are using, because your always less likely to end up getting the cost wrong and having to make up for it.

My point here isn't about actually breaking these costs down. It's about communicating to the members with what they are being charged for, and why they are being charged. You can see where folks like Jeff feel like they are not being treated equitably when an arbitrary fee is assessed. We can see where folks like Bernie might have different values in how the needed fees are distributed. My point is members of a club generally are going to want to be treated equitably, and in the club doing it's best to be open about it's costs (to the best of their limited ability) in assessing fees to cover those costs (according to the way the organization wants to structure itself), then your going to have more harmony and people feeling like they are getting a fair shake.

Some people might not care about this, but many will.

[Rob Marshall]

Matt,


It would cost the average club more in time and effort to calculate the variable costs involved than the cost savings to the members affected who otherwise would pay for that time and effort in additional dues.


Yes, private clubs in the US are generally for the more wealthy, but most are actually effectively small businesses that run on thin margins. They neither have the staff nor the software to implement academic pricing models. Indeed, for most, the staff are overworked and underpaid.


Ira

Ira,

All of this is fine, and in generally I agree, but my point still stands. Even if the costs are back-of-the-envelope guesses, then the guesses are being made in an alternate pricing structure anyway. Everyone wins as the pricing closer reflects the costs, no matter how expensive of a microscope people are using, because your always less likely to end up getting the cost wrong and having to make up for it.

My point here isn't about actually breaking these costs down. It's about communicating to the members with what they are being charged for, and why they are being charged. You can see where folks like Jeff feel like they are not being treated equitably when an arbitrary fee is assessed. We can see where folks like Bernie might have different values in how the needed fees are distributed. My point is members of a club generally are going to want to be treated equitably, and in the club doing it's best to be open about it's costs (to the best of their limited ability) in assessing fees to cover those costs (according to the way the organization wants to structure itself), then your going to have more harmony and people feeling like they are getting a fair shake.

Some people might not care about this, but many will.

Matt,
The club in Florida I’m joining charges for walking whether you use a push cart or carry your clubs. They are rare as at most clubs in Florida there is no option to walk. You get charged and are required to ride. The club charges roughly 50% of a cart fee to walk. I think it’s $15. This is not an ultra wealthy club. Pre Covid you could have walked right in. Never heard one person complain about it. There is no issue with harmony.
I’m sure the club knows how many rounds are walked each year and have factored that into their annual budgets. If you like to walk but don’t want to pay a fee. Don’t join. It’s that simple. This is a member owned club. There is no profit motive.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Matt,
The club in Florida I’m joining charges for walking whether you use a push cart or carry your clubs. They are rare as at most clubs in Florida there is no option to walk. You get charged and are required to ride. The club charges roughly 50% of a cart fee to walk. I think it’s $15. This is not an ultra wealthy club. Pre Covid you could have walked right in. Never heard one person complain about it. There is no issue with harmony.
I’m sure the club knows how many rounds are walked each year and have factored that into their annual budgets. If you like to walk but don’t want to pay a fee. Don’t join. It’s that simple. This is a member owned club. There is no profit motive.

I'm not against a "per round" charge, I just think it's dumb to have an arbitrary "trail fee" to walk. In that case, just have a fee to play, and a cart fee on top of that, or have carts be included. Just don't charge a fee without the fee being for a good or service.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt,


I own and maintain my own golf cart yet I pay the same fee as the member who uses the carts the club pays for and maintains. I do this because I love having my own cart. How is this different than the member who pays to walk because that is what he loves?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I mean, I have no idea where you got the idea that we were taking about a push cart fee, but if that's the case, I'd say this:

From the OP:

I recently played at a friend's club which is a high end member owned club with terrific amenities and two courses and during covid many of the members began walking and using push carts including electric ones and they have decided to charge a fee to those who choose to walk as they have lost quite a bit of riding cart revenue.

And from experience where the options, as I've said twice now IIRC, are often:
- walk and carry
- take a caddie
- take a driving cart

Many clubs don't allow push carts, and of those that do, some charge a "trail fee" or a push cart fee. Just as some charge a trail fee if you own and use your own driving cart.

[Ira Fishman]

Matt,


It would cost the average club more in time and effort to calculate the variable costs involved than the cost savings to the members affected who otherwise would pay for that time and effort in additional dues.


Yes, private clubs in the US are generally for the more wealthy, but most are actually effectively small businesses that run on thin margins. They neither have the staff nor the software to implement academic pricing models. Indeed, for most, the staff are overworked and underpaid.


Ira

Ira,

All of this is fine, and in generally I agree, but my point still stands. Even if the costs are back-of-the-envelope guesses, then the guesses are being made in an alternate pricing structure anyway. Everyone wins as the pricing closer reflects the costs, no matter how expensive of a microscope people are using, because your always less likely to end up getting the cost wrong and having to make up for it.

My point here isn't about actually breaking these costs down. It's about communicating to the members with what they are being charged for, and why they are being charged. You can see where folks like Jeff feel like they are not being treated equitably when an arbitrary fee is assessed. We can see where folks like Bernie might have different values in how the needed fees are distributed. My point is members of a club generally are going to want to be treated equitably, and in the club doing it's best to be open about it's costs (to the best of their limited ability) in assessing fees to cover those costs (according to the way the organization wants to structure itself), then your going to have more harmony and people feeling like they are getting a fair shake.

Some people might not care about this, but many will.

Matt,


Are you a member of a club? If so, have you asked many fellow members what they care about? If not, how would know what they care about? People lead busy lives; theoretical pricing models tend not to be at the top of their lists.


Ira

[Matt Schoolfield]

I own and maintain my own golf cart yet I pay the same fee as the member who uses the carts the club pays for and maintains. I do this because I love having my own cart. How is this different than the member who pays to walk because that is what he loves?

Your cart causes maintenance issues (externalities) on the course that are greater than folks who choose to walk. Your maintenance and amortization of cost of your own cart reduces the cost burden you're putting on your club. I think the charge for a owned cart should be somewhere in between.

Many clubs don't allow push carts, and of those that do, some charge a "trail fee" or a push cart fee. Just as some charge a trail fee if you own and use your own driving cart.

If "trail fee" just means "push cart fee" then, yes, it's fair enough to have a trivial push cart fee, but just call it a push cart fee.

[Sean_A]

I am not sure why folks are bucking against cost transparency or accurate fee labels. Transparency helps a membership make decisions. And. I for one don’t really know what a trail fee is. The term makes no sense as a golf term…which makes me want more transparency about the finances. 

Ciao

[Mike Worth]

I am not sure why folks are bucking against cost transparency or accurate fee labels. Transparency helps a membership make decisions. And. I for one don’t really know what a trail fee is. The term makes no sense as a golf term…which makes me want more transparency about the finances. 

Ciao

I think “trail fee“ is a newer concept thus it’s a new term.


Logically, we assume walking and carrying is included in an annual membership. But what if it isn’t actually included. See Joe T’s post re: Pinehurst 2.  There are other examples.


Charging a trail fee IS transparent because the club is telling you upfront - Folks may object to it, but you can’t claim it isn’t transparent if they are announcing it upfront.


I would also say that it’s not arbitrary either. It may be new and objectionable to 90% of golfers, but it’s not arbitrary.  It’s NEW.


I’m also not sure why the actual cost to the club is a factor. Businesses charge for all sorts of things that may not cost them very much.  I mean if this was actually a thing, I should go back to my car dealer and ask them to write me a check for $8500 which is the portion above actual costs that they charged for the car I bought last month.

This may be to the point of “leverage.“ Golf club owners are in the driver seat right now, and if they can get away with charging for something without creating a member revolt, then they might.  At this point, however, threatening to leave a club over a trail fee would probably not work because you would have no other place to go.


I personally don’t like a trail fee. It’s counter to everything that I’ve always understood about golf fees[size=78%].  [/size]

[Sean_A]

I am not sure why folks are bucking against cost transparency or accurate fee labels. Transparency helps a membership make decisions. And. I for one don’t really know what a trail fee is. The term makes no sense as a golf term…which makes me want more transparency about the finances. 

Ciao

I think “trail fee“ is a newer concept thus it’s a new term.


Logically, we assume walking and carrying is included in an annual membership. But what if it isn’t actually included. See Joe T’s post re: Pinehurst 2.  There are other examples.


Charging a trail fee IS transparent because the club is telling you upfront - Folks may object to it, but you can’t claim it isn’t transparent if they are announcing it upfront.

I would also say that it’s not arbitrary either. It may be new and objectionable to 90% of golfers, but it’s not arbitrary.  It’s NEW.

I’m also not sure why the actual cost to the club is a factor. Businesses charge for all sorts of things that may not cost them very much.  I mean if this was actually a thing, I should go back to my car dealer and ask them to write me a check for $8500 which is the portion above actual costs that they charged for the car I bought last month.

This may be to the point of “leverage.“ Golf club owners are in the driver seat right now, and if they can get away with charging for something without creating a member revolt, then they might.  At this point, however, threatening to leave a club over a trail fee would probably not work because you would have no other place to go.

I personally don’t like a trail fee. It’s counter to everything that I’ve always understood about golf fees[size=78%].  [/size]

I can see your point if a club isn’t member owned because then it’s a proper business. It exists 1st and foremost to make a profit. It makes no difference what the line items are. If member owned, as a part owner of a club which exists to  provide services for the membership, would appreciate transparency on the actual cost to the Club. If that line item bears no cost to the club, yes, I am gonna question why there is a fee. I would hope most members scrutinise club finances and ask questions.

What’s next? Because it’s new, is it cool to have a tee, fairway, green or bunker fee? A trail fee just seems like a way to make sure all members, regardless of how they get around the course, are paying something when they tee it up.

The guy who takes a caddie doesn’t actually contribute anything to the club with the fee he pays. Should he pay a trail fee as well? Maybe even an admin fee? Makes sense me if trail fees are applied.

When I first heard the term trail fee I assumed new paths were being maintained between tee and fairway for walkers or something like a shortcut walker bridge was built. The fee would maintain the new feature designed for walkers. Silly me.

Ciao

[Rob Marshall]

Trail fee is not a new term. It has been used many many years for the charge you incur to use your "own golf cart" on a course. I've never seen it used  for carrying your clubs or using a push cart. The term I've seen used is "walking fee".

[Mike Worth]

Sean - yes, it’s an important point. The examples and logic I’m applying are for clubs where I’m familiar that this is a thing which are indeed privately owned for profit.

[Tommy Williamsen]

 

Ciao


The guy who takes a caddie doesn’t actually contribute anything to the club with the fee he pays. Should he pay a trail fee as well? Maybe even an admin fee? Makes sense me if trail fees are applied.


Ciao



Sean, that isn't always true anymore. When I played #10, I gave the pro shop $80. My tip was on top of that.I asked the caddie how much he got of that money.  I can't remember exactly, but I think it was something like $50. I used to belong to a club where we did a similar thing.

[Craig Sweet]

Of course there should be a fee for every swing (divots, pitch marks = increased maintinence costs)

[Jim Lipstate]

I am a member of a private course where there is a strong walking ethos among many of the members. We are allowed to carry or use our own pushcarts manual or electric without an extra fee although there is a charge for those who store them at the club.


I remember playing with a close friend at his club on the Palm Coast of Florida that allowed no walking of the course before 3pm and then only if you carried. You basically had to ride in carts to play the course.


I will never be a member of a course with this type of policy. I am 70 years old and walking the course for 4 hours is my main form of exercise and fitness. A 6 mile hike three days a week is great. I guarantee I can get around the course as fast as a cart player. Walking to me is an integral part of the game. I think clubs should encourage walking and if hard up for cash find an equitable way to allow walkers. To flat out demand cart golf to me is antithetical to the spirit of the game.

[Chris Hughes]

Matt,


Were you also kidding when you said that kids should not be allowed to caddie because of the sun damaging their skin? If you were, congrats indeed on setting me up. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in being a dick and am rarely out ranked.

Wealth redistribution, as well as government seizure of private assets and/or forced access due to perceived inequities, are cornerstones of the playbook you are fencing with -- but I'm sure you are aware of this...


...carry on.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Matt,

Were you also kidding when you said that kids should not be allowed to caddie because of the sun damaging their skin? If you were, congrats indeed on setting me up. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in being a dick and am rarely out ranked.

Wealth redistribution, as well as government seizure of private assets and/or forced access due to perceived inequities, are cornerstones of the playbook you are fencing with -- but I'm sure you are aware of this...

...carry on.

You kids might want to take better notes before engaging in your ridiculous bullying sessions. I'm a capitalist.

[Chris Hughes]

Of course there should be a fee for every swing (divots, pitch marks = increased maintenance costs)

Hey Craig, who we locking up?


As for club finances, for those who are interested in learning more and may not be aware, there is a lot of publicly accessible financial information on private clubs who have incorporated as a 501(c) entity, find it here: 

https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/details/

Just switch the "Search By" drop-down from "EIN" to "Organization Name" and enter the club of your choice, say "Merion Golf"...

2022:
$15.4M of revenues, up about $1M y/y.
13 person board of which 3 are women (including Buddy Marrucci and a Siderowf).
Compensation --> GM = $451K, Super = $485K, Golf Pro = $365K, Chef = $156K.
Debt is effectively nil and club had $4.3M in the bank @ year-end.
Greens & Cart revenues were $2.7M total.
Dues revenue was $9.2M.
Initiation fees were $1.9M.   
The club employed 289 people in 2022.
The Curtis Cup produced $389K of net revenues.
Etc...

FYI.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean, that isn't always true anymore. When I played #10, I gave the pro shop $80. My tip was on top of that.I asked the caddie how much he got of that money.  I can't remember exactly, but I think it was something like $50. I used to belong to a club where we did a similar thing.

Tommy,


When you paid the pro shop an extra $30 for a caddie on top of the tip the caddie received directly from you were you charged a green fee? Such generosity is an inspiration.

[Michael Morandi]

I am a member of a private course where there is a strong walking ethos among many of the members. We are allowed to carry or use our own pushcarts manual or electric without an extra fee although there is a charge for those who store them at the club.


I remember playing with a close friend at his club on the Palm Coast of Florida that allowed no walking of the course before 3pm and then only if you carried. You basically had to ride in carts to play the course.


I will never be a member of a course with this type of policy. I am 70 years old and walking the course for 4 hours is my main form of exercise and fitness. A 6 mile hike three days a week is great. I guarantee I can get around the course as fast as a cart player. Walking to me is an integral part of the game. I think clubs should encourage walking and if hard up for cash find an equitable way to allow walkers. To flat out demand cart golf to me is antithetical to the spirit of the game.

As a fellow 70 year old, I agree with you completely, Jim. Golf was meant for walking. When you consider the stress driving carts put on a course, I don’t know why a club would want to incentivize using them. Obviously there are some courses, especially those built around residential communities, where there is a substantial distance between holes and a cart makes sense.

[Chris Hughes]

I recently played at a friend's club which is a high end member owned club with terrific amenities and two courses and during covid many of the members began walking and using push carts including electric ones and they have decided to charge a fee to those who choose to walk as they have lost quite a bit of riding cart revenue. 

Given the size of the facility you describe (36 holes, terrific amenities, etc) my guess would be that the covid related delta in cart revenues as a % of the overall budget would be miniscule (1% or less).

If "management" is nickel-diming the members in this manner it would make me wonder about the overall financial condition of the entity...

...and, by my estimation, if anything should be raised (other than dues) it's the cart fee!!

[Rob Marshall]

Of course there should be a fee for every swing (divots, pitch marks = increased maintenance costs)

Hey Craig, who we locking up?


As for club finances, for those who are interested in learning more and may not be aware, there is a lot of publicly accessible financial information on private clubs who have incorporated as a 501(c) entity, find it here: 

https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/details/

Just switch the "Search By" drop-down from "EIN" to "Organization Name" and enter the club of your choice, say "Merion Golf"...

2022:
$15.4M of revenues, up about $1M y/y.
13 person board of which 3 are women (including Buddy Marrucci and a Siderowf).
Compensation --> GM = $451K, Super = $485K, Golf Pro = $365K, Chef = $156K.
Debt is effectively nil and club had $4.3M in the bank @ year-end.
Greens & Cart revenues were $2.7M total.
Dues revenue was $9.2M.
Initiation fees were $1.9M.   
The club employed 289 people in 2022.
The Curtis Cup produced $389K of net revenues.
Etc...

FYI.

Look at 2021 and see what they got in ERC money.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Golf clubs are rarely worth it if looked at as an economic decision. Although a few members play 75+ rounds a year at their clubs (me included), the mean number of rounds per member is somewhere around 25 at my club. At $12,000 dues plus at least another $1,000 in incidentals, that comes to over $500 per round.
   Clearly, most people don’t join a club because it’s a deal or because the dues structure is fair. All this nickel and diming to me means the club is run by petty people.

[Chris Hughes]

   Golf clubs are rarely worth it if looked at as an economic decision. Although a few members play 75+ rounds a year at their clubs (me included), the mean number of rounds per member is somewhere around 25 at my club. At $12,000 dues plus at least another $1,000 in incidentals, that comes to over $500 per round.
   Clearly, most people don’t join a club because it’s a deal or because the dues structure is fair. All this nickel and diming to me means the club is run by petty people.

Exactly.


Monthly Dues - Capital Dues - Food Minimum - Service Fee, etc...


...it's all dues -- just total it up and list one number already!


I'm aware of a club that recently raised the Capital Dues 443% year/year!! 


"Consultants" led them down the primrose path of profligate building of fancy stuff and when the true cost of ownership became apparent, combined with the promised revenues not materializing, the combination of things listed above increased 30%+ year/year.


Buyer beware when the "consultants" come knocking...

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