Charging members to walk

[Rob Marshall]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd implement mandatory GPS trackers for all walkers, used in the following manner:

a. Establish for every member the average # of feet traveled over the course of 18 holes
b. Track the # of feet traveled at >5.5mph during each round
c. Charge member (b/a)*(cart fee $)

This really seems like the only equitable solution, at least for phase 1. 

Phase 2, I'd require Arccos on all irons and wedges and charge a %age of the total annual maintenance budget based on the number of shots struck from the fairway, to offset the walkers not filling divots with sand and seed.  Of course, in some parts of the country, where divots may be replaced, this would not work perfectly, so Phase 2 needs more work.  I'd probably establish a committee to determine the best way forward.

Brian


Excellent idea!  This is the type of innovation we need to "prove" once and for all that cart ballers shoot better scores than walkers....and they do it in less time   

You'll need years of data, though.  And an advocate willing to be needlessly rude to other posters, purely dedicated to analysing the data and their deductions from it.  They'll need to be so sure they're right that they can argue black is white.  And dedicated to selling a book, or lessons, or videos or something.


If only the site had a good candidate.

Ha Ha, almost spit out my mountain dew,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I have a nomination!

[Rob Marshall]

Hey now, it's pretty easy to make jokes at others' expense. Even with a well executed joke, they're still at others' expense, which is pretty hack. I'd hope folks could make it clear that they're trying to laugh with and not laugh at.

Pretty sure everyone laughing is laughing at...

[John Kavanaugh]

At two different courses where I am a member I paved the cart paths under an agreement where I was paid $1 per round until the balance was paid off. Everyone who played no matter the method payed the dollar because the cart paths benefited all members equally. The trail fees still exist today.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I always liked the options that Oak Hill CC in Rochester has for their members & guests. You can do one of the 4:


- Take a caddy
- Carry your own bag.
- Use a push cart (either your own or a club rental)
- Ride in a cart.


The only one you pay for is a riding cart and obviously a caddy.


Basically, do whatever you want. What a novel idea!

This is pretty much every club in Canada (except push carts are provided free of charge). Maybe the common sense traveled south across Lake Ontario?

[Rob Marshall]

Never heard of a club in Rochester or the surrounding area any different than the Oak Hill policy that John lays out.


The course I’m on the waiting list in Naples does charge to walk but most of the others are mandatory carts so it is nice to have the option to walk even for a nominal fee.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Hey now, it's pretty easy to make jokes at others' expense. Even with a well executed joke, they're still at others' expense, which is pretty hack. I'd hope folks could make it clear that they're trying to laugh with and not laugh at.

Pretty sure everyone laughing is laughing at...

There is nothing quite as graceless as pointless bullying for entertainment.

[Niall C]

Matt


I don't think Mark's post was pointless bullying. On the contrary, he was making a point in a very witty way. I think we all know who the comment was aimed at and I doubt many of us would consider Mark's comments ruder than the regular comments made by the supposed victim of Mark's "bullying".


Niall

[Tim Martin]

Matt


I don't think Mark's post was pointless bullying. On the contrary, he was making a point in a very witty way. I think we all know who the comment was aimed at and I doubt many of us would consider Mark's comments ruder than the regular comments made by the supposed victim of Mark's "bullying".


Niall

+1

[Michael Felton]

Isn't this kind of like whether you have toll roads as in the US vs a car tax that you pay each year as in the UK? Tolls on roads (and taxes on gas) charge at least somewhat per use and the car tax pays a flat (ish) rate per year. At a private member owned club, you have a certain amount that it costs in a given year to run the club, keep the course in good shape, etc. The members pay for it one way or another - in the UK model, some of that is paid by the members and some is covered by lending the course to visitors and societies in return for a fee. In the US the members pay it directly and pretty much in full. I know there are some clubs where they add up the cost of running the club for the year, divide it by the number of members and send a bill.


Personally I don't particularly like the pay per time you play although given how much I play I'd probably be in a better state if they did do it that way. It feels so nickel and dimey to make people pay per round. I think what I'd do if I was charged with implementing something like this to bring back up cart revenue losses is add say $500 to each person's subs and add a $25 charge to walk the course, but make the first 30 times you play be free. You could probably even give people the choice. Pay $1,000 extra and you get unlimited golf. Pay $750 and you get 50 rounds. Pay $500 and you get 30 rounds. Pay nothing up front and just pay each time you play. Everyone is going to pick optimally for themselves, so hopefully no one will be too upset.

[Michael Felton]

Matt


I don't think Mark's post was pointless bullying. On the contrary, he was making a point in a very witty way. I think we all know who the comment was aimed at and I doubt many of us would consider Mark's comments ruder than the regular comments made by the supposed victim of Mark's "bullying".


Niall

If you believe this to be true, why lower oneself to what one perceives is his level? Isn't it better to stay above the fray? The piling on here is needless and over the top and brings down the level of the board. IMO at least.

[Bruce Katona]

Golf's a business, not matter if its a private equity club, private non-equity club, privately owned public course or publically owned public course.  Revenue needs to offset expenses, maintenance & capital expenses or the product delivered to the end user suffers, which results in the death spiral of losing members/play & raising rates to offset to loss of play.


Revenue at any course is multi- pronged:
1. Greens fees/dues
2. Carts
3. F&B Income
4. Merchandise sales


Exenses are:
1. Course Maintenance costs (What is costs to keep the grass green)
2. Employee Costs - all epmoyees in all departments
3. Cost of Goods Sold (F&B, Merchandise, etc)
4. Fixed Costs - real estate taxes, irrigation, sewer fees, utilities (gas, electric, CATV, etc)
5. CapEx - annual improvements (fix bunkers, top dress tees etc)


At private equity clubs renevenue = expenses - no assessment at years end to plug the shortfall


At publically owned public courses, many times a revenue shortfall can be covered as the golf course is operated by Parks & Recreation who can shift costs like employees into the overall larger Departmental budget and show the facility is opertaing at a break even or is revenue positive.


At private non-equity or privaley owned publics; ownership won't for long dip into their pocket to subsidize an annual operating defecit so revenue needs to be increased, expenses cut or a combination of the two.


Hand pull trollies cost little to lease & maintain.  If somwonw wants to walk and pull a trolley, charge them a few dollars or quid to offset the lease cost. If they want to walk and carry, no charge.  Electric trollies are great, charge a few more dollars for use as they need to be charged & maintained - there is an associated cost. 


Cart fees are a large revenue stream - here most folks are lazy and like to ride.


Just my $0.02 as this is an ongoing debate in the business of golf.

[Niall C]

Matt


I don't think Mark's post was pointless bullying. On the contrary, he was making a point in a very witty way. I think we all know who the comment was aimed at and I doubt many of us would consider Mark's comments ruder than the regular comments made by the supposed victim of Mark's "bullying".


Niall

If you believe this to be true, why lower oneself to what one perceives is his level? Isn't it better to stay above the fray? The piling on here is needless and over the top and brings down the level of the board. IMO at least.

Michael


I wasn't piling on as you put it but rather I was disagreeing with Matt. It is a discussion board after all.


Niall

[Michael Felton]

Michael


I wasn't piling on as you put it but rather I was disagreeing with Matt. It is a discussion board after all.


Niall

Sorry - I agree that you weren't - I should have been clearer. There is some general piling on going on though I didn't think you were one doing that.

[Mark Pearce]

Michael


I wasn't piling on as you put it but rather I was disagreeing with Matt. It is a discussion board after all.


Niall

Sorry - I agree that you weren't - I should have been clearer. There is some general piling on going on though I didn't think you were one doing that.

Is there?  Or has the "victim" been unnecessarily rude and obnoxious to almost every other poster who has tried to engage with him, so that that's what it looks like?  Other than the few who agree with him on everything (or haven't yet dared disagree, even slightly).  In my book that isn't piling on.

[John Kavanaugh]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd probably have the course properly rerouted or even completely redesigned to avoid this.

The above is a perfect example of high level bullying. I ask a legit question based on real world experience and get a response straight out of fantasy land. I personally took it as a clever response and laughed out of respect for the effort.


Note: I’ve spent my entire golf life giving walkers lifts here and there in the interest of faster play. I always felt like I was cheating the club because if we refused the walker they would have been forced to rent a cart or find another game. Same goes for the walker that says he doesn’t need a caddie but then asks advice.

[Matt Schoolfield]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd probably have the course properly rerouted or even completely redesigned to avoid this.

The above is a perfect example of high level bullying. I ask a legit question based on real world experience and get a response straight out of fantasy land. I personally took it as a clever response and laughed out of respect for the effort.


Note: I’ve spent my entire golf life giving walkers lifts here and there in the interest of faster play. I always felt like I was cheating the club because if we refused the walker they would have been forced to rent a cart or find another game. Same goes for the walker that says he doesn’t need a caddie but then asks advice.

Oh my, I genuinely believed you were doing a bit, which I thought was funny, and I just wanted to play along.

I certainly apologize, I understand how that could have seemed rude, and I regret that, and I'll try to take your comments more at face value in the future.

To answer the question earnestly, no, I don't think it should incur a charge. I can understand the logic behind walkers "cheating the system" when they hitch a ride at a long transition, but on most courses, because the pace of play benefits totally outweigh a few pennies lost in revenue, I think it can be seen as the walker doing the club a favor, rather than taking advantage of the club.

If a course is has too many gaps in the routing where walking becomes impractical, then I would probably raise dues and make carts free, since they are effectively required to maintain a reasonable pace. That way hitching a ride would be included in the dues.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt,


Were you also kidding when you said that kids should not be allowed to caddie because of the sun damaging their skin? If you were, congrats indeed on setting me up. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in being a dick and am rarely out ranked.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Matt,

Were you also kidding when you said that kids should not be allowed to caddie because of the sun damaging their skin? If you were, congrats indeed on setting me up. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in being a dick and am rarely out ranked.

John, hey, I don't appreciate this.

[Ira Fishman]

Matt,


Were you also kidding when you said that kids should not be allowed to caddie because of the sun damaging their skin? If you were, congrats indeed on setting me up. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in being a dick and am rarely out ranked.

JK,


As previously noted, good to have you back. We need more laughs and less self-seriousness.


On the question of players who don’t take a caddie but then ask for advice, a definite pet peeve. I get it if once or twice in the round, someone is genuinely confused about the hole. And I have seen plenty of caddies go out of their way to help. But taking advantage of a caddie is a big faux pas in my book, particularly if they don’t slip the caddie some cash (which I do regardless when it is our caddie that has helped our playing partner).


Ira

[Rob Marshall]

Matt,


Were you also kidding when you said that kids should not be allowed to caddie because of the sun damaging their skin? If you were, congrats indeed on setting me up. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in being a dick and am rarely out ranked.

JK,


As previously noted, good to have you back. We need more laughs and less self-seriousness.


On the question of players who don’t take a caddie but then ask for advice, a definite pet peeve. I get it if once or twice in the round, someone is genuinely confused about the hole. And I have seen plenty of caddies go out of their way to help. But taking advantage of a caddie is a big faux pas in my book, particularly if they don’t slip the caddie some cash (which I do regardless when it is our caddie that has helped our playing partner).


Ira

When I played Streamsong Blue I walked with a trolley. I asked the guys I was playing with if they minded if I asked their caddie a few questions. They had no issue and when the round was done I thanked the caddie and gave him $40  or $50.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt,


You are a top notch contributor to this site and an asset to the game. I am sorry if I offended you.

[Tim Martin]

Matt,

Were you also kidding when you said that kids should not be allowed to caddie because of the sun damaging their skin? If you were, congrats indeed on setting me up. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in being a dick and am rarely out ranked.

John, hey, I don't appreciate this.

JK-I can’t imagine Matt wanted to relive the kid sun damage caddie issue so don’t underestimate your dickishness.  

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I fail to see how a fee for providing nothing can be anything but needlessly redundant. The point is to raise revenues, just raise the prices. I don't see what I'm missing here.

They're not charging a fee for nothing: they're letting you take your push cart instead of:
- carrying your own bag
- hiring a caddie
- renting a driving cart

There are clubs where you're not allowed to take a push cart: the above three are your only options.

Your proposed example to raise dues is charging people who never wish to use a push cart, and is thus more "for nothing" than what seems to be the case: a trail fee for those who wish to use a push cart. (Lowering the fees for the others to account for this renders that small sub-point moot.)

It's not perfectly clear in the OP, but he said they were using push carts or electric carts, so I think he's saying they're charging a small fee for using a push cart, not for all walkers (including those who carry their own bag).

Pretending that rounds of golf are free, but then having a "trail fee" that carting players don't need to play is the exact type of dishonesty I'm getting at. Just charge for the golf. Then on top of that, charge for the costs the carts impose on the club, and the push carts and caddies as well.

The trail fee is for push carts (or, at other courses, for owners of their own driving carts). It's not for just walking and carrying your bag.

Maybe I'm wrong and the OP meant walkers carrying their bags also had to pay a trail fee… but I read it as push carts = trail fee, walking and carrying = no fee.

[Ira Fishman]

Matt,


Were you also kidding when you said that kids should not be allowed to caddie because of the sun damaging their skin? If you were, congrats indeed on setting me up. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in being a dick and am rarely out ranked.

JK,


As previously noted, good to have you back. We need more laughs and less self-seriousness.


On the question of players who don’t take a caddie but then ask for advice, a definite pet peeve. I get it if once or twice in the round, someone is genuinely confused about the hole. And I have seen plenty of caddies go out of their way to help. But taking advantage of a caddie is a big faux pas in my book, particularly if they don’t slip the caddie some cash (which I do regardless when it is our caddie that has helped our playing partner).


Ira

When I played Streamsong Blue I walked with a trolley. I asked the guys I was playing with if they minded if I asked their caddie a few questions. They had no issue and when the round was done I thanked the caddie and gave him $40  or $50.

Rob,


It would be the caddie who might have minded. He and his colleagues make their living from getting full freight. But good that you paid him something; many do not.


Ira

[Matt Schoolfield]

I fail to see how a fee for providing nothing can be anything but needlessly redundant. The point is to raise revenues, just raise the prices. I don't see what I'm missing here.

They're not charging a fee for nothing: they're letting you take your push cart instead of:
- carrying your own bag
- hiring a caddie
- renting a driving cart

There are clubs where you're not allowed to take a push cart: the above three are your only options.

Your proposed example to raise dues is charging people who never wish to use a push cart, and is thus more "for nothing" than what seems to be the case: a trail fee for those who wish to use a push cart. (Lowering the fees for the others to account for this renders that small sub-point moot.)

It's not perfectly clear in the OP, but he said they were using push carts or electric carts, so I think he's saying they're charging a small fee for using a push cart, not for all walkers (including those who carry their own bag).

Pretending that rounds of golf are free, but then having a "trail fee" that carting players don't need to play is the exact type of dishonesty I'm getting at. Just charge for the golf. Then on top of that, charge for the costs the carts impose on the club, and the push carts and caddies as well.

The trail fee is for push carts (or, at other courses, for owners of their own driving carts). It's not for just walking and carrying your bag.

Maybe I'm wrong and the OP meant walkers carrying their bags also had to pay a trail fee… but I read it as push carts = trail fee, walking and carrying = no fee.

I mean, I have no idea where you got the idea that we were taking about a push cart fee, but if that's the case, I'd say this:

Even when the fee is for push carts are personal golf carts, the fees should be assess for some reason other than "we're doing this because we have leverage". If the personal push cart or the personal golf cart have externalities on the course (they do), then that cost should be assigned to the member based on a general variable cost that the member is imposing on the club. Those costs exist, and so equivalent charges should be levied, even with a bit extra as a buffer, but generally speaking, the fee should be charged based on the costs imposed to the club, no simply because the club can raise arbitrary revenues. Instead of a "trail fee" they should charge a "the maintenance portion of the cart fee."