Green with Bunker in Middle

[Kyle Casella]

Are those offended by a bunker in the middle of a green also offended by a large tongue of grass that bisects a portion of a green, a la 17 at Pebble Beach (or many others), that may require one to chip over or putt away from the hole?

Yes.


"Dog-Leg Greens" (or DLGs...;-)...may amuse the GCA, but the player, the members and the superintendent are all groaning about it I would imagine.


Could also name threads like this: "Greens where there is not always a direct line to the hole" ...;-)


They do exist, but are usually at places like this: https://www.puttshack.com/

Ok, so if one hits it on a green, they should always have a direct line to the hole where they could conceivably get it inside some sort of "acceptable" radius?

[Ian Andrew]

12th at Doonbeg is my vote for the worst one ... it didn't work for me.





Conceptually not a fan, each new version feels silly rather than clever.
I do like Riviera, but perhaps because I respect the author's body of work there more than the single concept.

[Pete Lavallee]

Phil,


I didn’t mention the course in SD C county because it is not well known. The course is the CC of California in Fallbrook. The architects are Johnny Pott and Wade Cable who have no other courses here in SD Counrty; possibly some course in the Palm Springs area.


Rick,


Of course we can’t tell PGA Tour Pros what they can and cannot do but requiring the membership and their guests to use “putters only” on the 6th set seems reasonable since you can get there from here with a putter. I’ve really seen a Tour Pro take a divot when chipping off a green, can’t imagine your average Joe being quite so successful!

[Bill Gayne]

12th at Doonbeg is my vote for the worst one ... it didn't work for me.



Conceptually not a fan, each new version feels silly rather than clever.
I do like Riviera, but perhaps because I respect the author's body of work there more than the single concept.

I don't know if the blind bunker at Doonbeg is still there as its been several years since I've visited. It was particularly bad because it was blind on a par four. I asked one of the Doonbeg pros if there were any plans to take it out with other changes they were making at the time and I was told "no" with an explanation. The explanation being that the hole was built on a flat uninteresting part of the property and the bunker provided interest that gave something to talk about. The definition of a gimmick. 


I'm luke warm with a bunker in the green on a par three as long it and the rest of the green is visible. Needs to have reasonable ways to putt around the bunker. I'm not a fan in any other scenario.

[Jon Cavalier]

Gil Hanse's Wild Piglet par-3 course at Les Bordes has a good one.







Here's the aforementioned donut at Dismal White, for those who haven't seen it.

[Ryan Book]

Ian has invited a debate on the similar merits of MacKenzie's boomerang greens.


Please remember that Alister's capitalization of the "K" does not necessarily make him right, and Ian's lowercase does not make him wrong.

Are those offended by a bunker in the middle of a green also offended by a large tongue of grass that bisects a portion of a green, a la 17 at Pebble Beach (or many others), that may require one to chip over or putt away from the hole?

Yes.


"Dog-Leg Greens" (or DLGs...;-)...may amuse the GCA, but the player, the members and the superintendent are all groaning about it I would imagine.


Could also name threads like this: "Greens where there is not always a direct line to the hole" ...;-)


They do exist, but are usually at places like this: https://www.puttshack.com/

[Ryan Book]

Andy from TFE sketched something out yesterday on Twitter, a concept I really hadn't considered but has elevated my interest in a donut green threefold...incorporating the green bunker into a reasonably short par four (360 yards from the back). Rather than make the hole a do-or-die scenario (the Riviera example is a stone's throw from a Pete Dye island's ask), the definition of the ideal tee shot, and its according approach shot, is defined by the flag placement. A tee shot that misses the day's ideal landing area may not be able to attack the flag, due to the bunker, however the safe shot into the green, away from the flag, becomes more comfortable for those content with a two-putt. A link, below:


https://x.com/AndyTFE/status/1846267532472471571

[Forrest Richardson]

Mark Fine’s retort is spot on.
My 13th and 14th shared green at Mountain Shadows has a green bunker. It allows some very interesting hole locations when the club wants a set-up that is different and unusual.

The Hills at Promontory has a crescent shaped riveted ridge in the green. Rather than ‘gimmick’ I’d use innovative, but then again I’m biased.

[Tom_Doak]

The hole is question is the 17th hole [at Bayside].  It a 138 yard par 3 and you can watch the flyover at the link below.

Chris [and Stewart]:  Thanks for the correction.  We didn't play all of the holes, so perhaps that's why I didn't remember the sequence correctly.  [Hopefully that, instead of a pointed reminder about my family history with Alzheimer's.]  I just didn't remember Clayts hitting that shot right before we were done, I could have sworn there was more golf afterward.

[Thomas Dai]

There are some cracking lions mouth greens around.
Would they be improved if the area on the fairway side of the mouth were putting surface?*
Atb


* Of course if instead of manicured rough around bunkers/greens there was fairway height cut players could putt from in front of the lions mouth.

[Matthew Petersen]

I have a vague recollection that this was discussed previously. In any event there is one on the 17th hole at Bayside in Brule Nebraska. It's likely a polarizing hole, but I don't think the concept is per se bad. On this one you can putt to most hole locations from most places on the green because of the way the slopes work. It's  MC Escher-like. If you are directly across  the bunker from the hole you'll lose a stroke, but so what. That's fair for landing in the worst place on the green on a short hole. There are plenty of equally bad or worse ways to lose a stroke on a golf course and there are some fun putts to be had.




Bayside #17 short par 3 bunker in center of green



Bayside #17 green 

According to the recent Club TFE profile of Bayside, the owner of Bayside dug this bunker himself over Proctor's wishes. (The owner, as I understand it, was active in all aspects of construction, it's not like he just went out there with a shovel one day.) Makes this one even a little more wild.

[Richard Hetzel]

I have seen just one IIRC.


Forest Dunes GC in Michigan, hole number 18 I think!




Not a fan of sticking a bunker right in the middle of a green.