Green with Bunker in Middle

[Ira Fishman]

The Black Forest thread has a couple of photos of a Riviera 6 like hole. I do not remember ever playing a hole with a bunker in the green. It has always struck me as a misplaced (pun intended) gimmick that Riviera gets away with because, well, it is Riviera.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Nicklaus did something similar at Dismal River (#9?) I always looked at it as a double green.

[Pete Lavallee]

The 6th at Riviera is brilliant because the contours of the green allow you to putt from almost any point to any hole location. The terrain of the hillside its situated on must have convinced Capt. Thomas he could pull off the bunker in the middle of the green concept. During my one play there the scorecard indicated “putters only on the 6th green”! Of course the PGA Tour allows chipping.


We do have a hole here in SD County the has this feature but you are almost forced to chip if your ball is not in the same quadrant as the pin; far from ideal. Obviously a tough concept to pull off if not presented with ideal terrain to make it work.

[Matt Schoolfield]

I think a green in the middle of the green really forces people to consider what they think golf is all about.

If we think of golf as a skill game focusing on skill, it seems entirely antithetical. It is pretty ridiculous that we'd put a big penal barrier right in the center of the target, with effectively no strategic function other than forcing a bailout direction to one side instead of the other.

It's also complicated by the fact that, while we ought to be able to use any club at any point of the game, there is a sanctity of the green such that we are effectively required to only use a putter. Exposing this inherent contradiction in the rules can be unpleasant.

However, if we think of it as a skill game focusing on being a fun game, then it's entirely excusable. While it seems a bit pointless, it can be refreshing in suggesting players take a different strategy than they would otherwise take (say, play short of the bunker and accept the longer putt). It can also force very complex putting feats, that would otherwise not ever be attempted (here, I think the fun but absurd putt to get around the Lion's Mouth on #9 at Lake Merced, which was clearly intentionally designed).

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Personally, I see bunkers inside greens as center-line bunkers on steroids. I think they should be used extremely sparingly, and the only place I see them serving positive function for both fun and tests of skill is placing them on 19th holes to increase scoring variance to settle tied matches, such as #19 at Forest Dunes.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it's fine if adjacently accompanied by 1) a clown's mouth (not Lion's) and 2) a bubbling waterfall ...

[Pete_Pittock]

I have only played one, the 2nd at Tara Iti. Depending on the relative height of the green and tee it may play with your depth perception. On that day it made a back left hole location look like it was front left.

[Jim_Coleman]

   It’s a gimmick.

[Sean_A]

Gimmick? I wouldn’t suggest so until I experienced it. I am easily convinced the concept can be done well.


Talk about gimmicks. Played a par 3 today that offered a 200ish yard carry… if not pulled off the leave was rough on a steep bank. The alternative is layup to a fairway well below the green leaving a blind shot over a 25 foot high bank. Did I like the hole? Not much. Is it a gimmick…not convinced of this.


Ciao

[Kevin_Reilly]

The double green 5th and 7th at Olympic Club's 9 hole course has a bunker in the middle.  I think the only time I ever saw anyone in it was on the 7th if they pushed a tee shot from 150-ish.  Looks cool, but I think it was a gimmick from Weiskopf/Morrish like their church pew bunker on #12 of the Olympic Ocean Course.

[Matthew Rose]

The par-five third at Frost Creek in Colorado has one. I played with my dad who nearly made about a 70 foot putt that curled all the way around it from behind to in front; the contours were done in a way that made that possible.

It's fun if not a little contrived.

[Sam Morrow]

The one at Dismal is very cool,  The Tour also plays one on San Antonio.

[Mark_Fine]

Why is it any different than putting a bunker in the middle of a fairway?  You can play over it. You can play around it. You can play in front of it. Same concept with the bunker surrounded by green surface.  A green is just grass mowed at a different height.  If the hole is located to the right or left of the center bunker it is now just a flanking bunker like many green complexes have.  If the pin is located behind it then it is a carry bunker,…. 


Once again, if the concept is over used it might seem gimmicky but the same could be said for many design features. 

[Ben Stephens]

At the NLE Bloody Point golf course at Daufuskie Island the 18th green was like 70 yards long and it had a bunker in the middle of the green which I though worked well for a short to medium par 5.

[Jim_Coleman]

   A 70 yard long green with a bunker in the middle. Do they really want full lob wedges from the green?

[Tom_Doak]

The one at Dismal is very cool,

The one at Dismal is the worst one I've seen.  The first time I saw it, I just looked all around it and thought to myself, "Jack Nicklaus really did this??"  There was no allowance for short game play to get around the bunker if you were stymied, and playing from the back of the green blind up to the front is just an awful shot.


On the hole at Tara Iti, Brian Slawnik's first version of the green had a bunker sticking in from the back of the green to make kind of a U-shape, but the hole can be downwind and it would have been common to be stymied by the bunker.  So I edited and closed off the bunker to give you a play around all sides of it.  We were also pretty tricky about contouring the green just below the bunker so that balls would roll away from it a little and give you more of a chance to play around it on the ground.


As we were doing all of that, I wondered to myself whether the client would think it was too gimmicky, and then I laughed when I remembered that Mr. Kayne's house in L.A. is right behind the sixth green at Riviera!  So it wasn't a hard sell.  But I swear I didn't think of it until after we'd built the green.

[Phil Burr]

Who do so many contributors fail to mention the course name in their comments?  Design features are hardly proprietary - they’re all visible in Google Earth - so comments like “we have one here is SD County” are the ultimate frustration and add nothing to the conversation.  It’s one thing if we’re talking about membership, costs and other proprietary matters but a simple thing like identifying by name a course with a bunker in the middle of the green should offend no one, least of all the course in question.

[Rick Shefchik]

So 51 weeks out of the year, Riviera members and guests are not allowed to use a wedge on the green at #6 no matter how stymied they are by the bunker - but one week out of the year, wedges are permitted for the pros. Seems like a case of misplaced priorities.

[Sam Morrow]

The one at Dismal is very cool,

The one at Dismal is the worst one I've seen.  The first time I saw it, I just looked all around it and thought to myself, "Jack Nicklaus really did this??"  There was no allowance for short game play to get around the bunker if you were stymied, and playing from the back of the green blind up to the front is just an awful shot.


On the hole at Tara Iti, Brian Slawnik's first version of the green had a bunker sticking in from the back of the green to make kind of a U-shape, but the hole can be downwind and it would have been common to be stymied by the bunker.  So I edited and closed off the bunker to give you a play around all sides of it.  We were also pretty tricky about contouring the green just below the bunker so that balls would roll away from it a little and give you more of a chance to play around it on the ground.


As we were doing all of that, I wondered to myself whether the client would think it was too gimmicky, and then I laughed when I remembered that Mr. Kayne's house in L.A. is right behind the sixth green at Riviera!  So it wasn't a hard sell.  But I swear I didn't think of it until after we'd built the green.

That bunker at Dismal definitely wouldn't fit most places but it kinda fits the ridiculousness of that course. Dismal Nicklaus is like Willy Wonka's factory without the oompa loompas, you never know what's around the corner but it's gonna be wild.

[Stewart Abramson]

 I have a vague recollection that this was discussed previously. In any event there is one on the 17th hole at Bayside in Brule Nebraska. It's likely a polarizing hole, but I don't think the concept is per se bad. On this one you can putt to most hole locations from most places on the green because of the way the slopes work. It's  MC Escher-like. If you are directly across  the bunker from the hole you'll lose a stroke, but so what. That's fair for landing in the worst place on the green on a short hole. There are plenty of equally bad or worse ways to lose a stroke on a golf course and there are some fun putts to be had.




Bayside #17 short par 3 bunker in center of green



Bayside #17 green 

[Tom_Doak]

I have a vague recollection that this was discussed previously. In any event there is one on the 17th hole at Bayside in Brule Nebraska. It's likely a polarizing hole, but I don't think the concept is per se bad. On this one you can putt to most hole locations from most places on the green because of the way the slopes work. It's  MC Escher-like. If you are directly across  the bunker from the hole you'll lose a stroke, but so what. That's fair for landing in the worst place on the green on a short hole. There are plenty of equally bad or worse ways to lose a stroke on a golf course and there are some fun putts to be had.




Bayside #17 short par 3 bunker in center of green



Bayside #17 green 

I don't think that was the 17th hole, I think it was on the outward part of the back nine.  The only time I was there was with Mike Clayton and Bruce Grant, and the flag was left, and I noted that it looked like it was possible to land the ball up behind the bunker and have it pull back down to the flag.  It took Mike two attempts to pull it off.  Golf pros are built different than us.

[Tim Gavrich]

If we think of golf as a skill game focusing on skill, it seems entirely antithetical. It is pretty ridiculous that we'd put a big penal barrier right in the center of the target, with effectively no strategic function other than forcing a bailout direction to one side instead of the other.

The only real "target" on a golf course is the one that is 4 1/4 inches wide. It's your job to find the most efficient way there. Sometimes the putting green is a hazard.

[Kyle Casella]

Are those offended by a bunker in the middle of a green also offended by a large tongue of grass that bisects a portion of a green, a la 17 at Pebble Beach (or many others), that may require one to chip over or putt away from the hole?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Are those offended by a bunker in the middle of a green also offended by a large tongue of grass that bisects a portion of a green, a la 17 at Pebble Beach (or many others), that may require one to chip over or putt away from the hole?

Yes.


"Dog-Leg Greens" (or DLGs...;-)...may amuse the GCA, but the player, the members and the superintendent are all groaning about it I would imagine.


Could also name threads like this: "Greens where there is not always a direct line to the hole" ...;-)


They do exist, but are usually at places like this: https://www.puttshack.com/

[Stewart Abramson]

I don't think that was the 17th hole, I think it was on the outward part of the back nine. 

I'm almost certain it is 17 (at least it was when I played there.) It's a short hole and the only other par 3 on that side ( #13) is significantly longer


Flyover video of par 3 #17 from Bayside website: https://baysidegolf.com/golf-course/#tab-id-17


Here's a look at #13



Bayside #13 par 3 205 from tips


scorecard-1030x475
Bayside Scorecard

[Chris_Blakely]

I had forgotten about Bayside in Nebraska.  Played there a couple of years ago.


The hole is question is the 17th hole.  It a 138 yard par 3 and you can watch the flyover at the link below.


https://baysidegolf.com/golf-course/#tab-id-17


Thanks,


Chris