Timber Point - Momentum building toward Golden Age restoration

[Phil Carlucci]

The long-discussed potential restoration of Timber Point to its original 18-hole identity might actually be in the works. There are positive vibes in Suffolk County about taking it back to 18 from the current 27, including restoration of the natural wetlands that were filled in when the course was remodeled in the 1970s. The plan is to make Timber Point Suffolk County's version of Bethpage Black — a world-class public course that remains affordable to residents.

https://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2024/09/momentum-building-toward-golden-age-inspired-restoration-of-timber-point.html

[Anthony Gholz]

Phil:
Dare we dream that Alison's (and his right hand L E Lavis's) greatest NA work would come back to life in situ?  See this site or C&A in NA for Frank Pont's efforts in this direction.  Many years ago, but I have to believe he would still be up for it.
Like the Lido this can't be done (I hope) without first class reality as well as intent.
Reading this I'm definitely smiling, but fingers crossed.
Anthony

[Charlie Goerges]

This might be of interest, many years ago found this in the New York State Archives after a tip from Phil Young. Not the most detailed of plans, but I was told by the research librarian that there was another plan that was too large and fragile to scan. It might still be there. Anyway:


NYSA_A3320-78_B1_50 by goerges_family, on Flickr

Larger versions are available.

[Phil Young]

Charlie, I found the other plan as well and informed the staff as to its importance back in 2002. It is a complete set of plans that were most likely used on site during the construction as they contain a numerous hand-written comments regarding specific features on many of the holes. I was absolutely stunned at the placement and designs of the individual hazards. I'll look in my archives as I have the exact file number that it is in  and will pass it along. Ironically, it was in with information on the creation of Bethpage State Park. I only looked into those specific items because I thought that it may have been the original Bethpage plans. It may be too large for them to scan, but not for an outside company to do. It also wasn't in any sort of fragile condition back then as I unrolled it and examined it page by page.

[Phil Young]

For anyone who would like to visit the NY State Archives in Albany, New York, below is the files [they were kept in a number of cardboard boxes back then] in which I found the Timber Point Drawings:

]
A3320
 Maps, plans, and sketches for improvement and development of parks and parkways on Long Island, [ca. 1928-1954] (bulk 1930-1950)
 New York (State). Long Island State Park Commission.
 
     

Local system #:

(N-Ar)A3320
     

Corp/Agency author:

New York (State). Long Island State Park Commission.
     

Title:

Maps, plans, and sketches for improvement and development of parks and parkways on Long Island, [ca. 1928-1954] (bulk 1930-1950).
     

Quantity:

3 cu. ft. (ca. 40 maps) : print, some annotated, blueprints ; 60 x 34 cm or larger.
     

Arrangement:

Numerical by map or plan number.
     

Abstract:

The series consists of a variety of printed maps, plans, and sketches of parks, recreational areas, and other facilities in Suffolk and Nassau counties that were apparently the focus of the Long Island State Park Commission over several decades. The commission was organized by Chapter 112 of the Laws of 1924 to provide for the location, creation, acquisition, and improvement by the state of parks and parkways in those two counties. The public improvement effort was part of a comprehensive statewide plan for development of a unified state parks and parkways system.
     

Abstract:

The commission plan called for a parkway system to provide access to individual parks from congested population centers and to improve transit on/to Long Island on attractive routes without interference by commercial traffic. It also called for the acquisition of land on the shores of Long Island to provide maximum park property on the northern and southern shores and at the then underdeveloped eastern end of the island. This included eventual transfer to the state of town beaches in Hempstead, Oyster Bay, and Babylon, lying between Long Beach and Fire Island. Robert Moses was the commission's chairman over several decades of its work, which progressed in stages as money and local politics permitted.
     

Abstract:

The records are primarily copies of print maps and plans, only some of which are annotated, that were prepared for and recommended by the commission to towns. They include maps showing land to be provided for the Long Island State Parkway system and the relation of private land holdings to the commission; sectional and highway maps of Suffolk County; and zoning and subdivision maps for several towns, showing district boundaries. Examples include a plan for development of Oak Island Beach, Babylon; a vicinity map of Heckscher State Park; and a highway map of Suffolk County annotated with recreation parks. Maps for the Town of Islip apparently relate to commission planning done for restoration and protection of Fire Island; after a hurricane struck in September of 1938, the commission resurrected a plan prepared 10 years earlier, and augmented and revised the maps, property surveys, rights of way and other data prepared at that time.
     

Abstract:

Other records reflect conveyances for realignments of roads; layout, site, and building plans of marinas and golf courses; plans of specific buildings within recreational complexes, especially clubhouses; aerial surveys of the south shore of Long Island; and one exhibit of sanitation survey application data for Suffolk County. These may relate to commission efforts to improve inlets to cope with increasing marine activity in the 1940s and 1950s as extension of the various links in the plan were completed.
     

Abstract:

The maps and plans are varied in their characteristics, although the majority are printed copies/blueprints that have been only slightly annotated. Most have distinct title, scale, and legend information and sometimes the commission is named as preparer. Sizes range from 60 x 34 cm to 105 x 260 cm.
     

Finding aids:

Container list.
     

Legal citations:

L. 1924, Ch. 112.
     

Linking entry note:

Agency record NYSV86-a369 describes the history and functions of the Dept. of Environmental Conservation resulting in creation of record series.
     

Personal subject:

Moses, Robert, 1888-1981.
     

Corporate subject:

New York (State). Dept. of Environmental Conservation.
     

Corporate subject:

New York (State). Office of Parks and Recreation.
     

Corporate subject:

New York (State). Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation.
     

Subject:

Parks--Government policy.
     

Subject:

Environmental policy.
     

Subject:

Parkways--New York (State)
     

Subject:

Recreation areas--New York (State)
     

Subject:

Recreation and state--New York (State)
     

Subject:

Natural resources, Communal--New York (State)
     

Geographic terms:

New York (State)
     

Geographic terms:

Islip (N.Y.)
     

Geographic terms:

Nassau County (N.Y.)
     

Geographic terms:

Babylon (N.Y.)
     

Geographic terms:

Hempstead (N.Y.)
     

Geographic terms:

Suffolk County (N.Y.)
     

Form/genre terms:

Maps. aat
     

Form/genre terms:

Sketches. aat
     

Form/genre terms:

Plans. aat
     

Form/genre terms:

Blueprints. aat
     

Form/genre terms:

Location maps. aat
     

Form/genre terms:

Plot plans. aat
     

Function terms:

Planning regional parks. aat
     

Function terms:

Planning parkways. aat
     

Function terms:

Protecting natural resources. aat
     

Corporate author:

New York (State). Division of Parks.
     

Corporate author:

New York (State). Conservation Dept.
     

Host item entry:

(CStRLIN)NYSV86-a369.
     

[Cal Seifert]

Has there been any word on who would be doing the work?

[Charlie Goerges]

I would dearly love for someone to find and scan/post the more detailed plans at the archives. I've spent hours with the one I posted, overlaying it in photoshop with the old aerials, new aerials, comparing everything and determining that there is no physical reason it couldn't be restored. It would be a fascinating project to follow.

[Charlie Goerges]

Here is part of a brief presentation I'd put together about restoring the famous 11th that was described at one point as (paraphrasing) hopping on stones across a stream.

EDIT: A COUPLE OF IMAGES BELOW ARE NO LONGER SHOWING UP, PROBABLY HOSTING ISSUES, THE IMAGE THAT STILL WORKS IS JUST A COMBINATION OF THE ONES THAT ARE NO LONGER SHOWING... APOLOGIES

Modern Aerial of that part of the course:



Here is an overlay of what the original plan shows for the 11th hole:




Animation
Here is an animation of the overlay to make the comparison easier:






The greensite appears to have been reused, though I'm sure a thorough re-shaping was done.

[Josh Bills]

I know the 1930 aerial has been posted other times, but wasn't sure if these from 1938 and 1947 had been. 


1938




1947

[Phil Carlucci]

Has there been any word on who would be doing the work?

Nothing official. There have been conversations but they aren't ready to make that information public.

[Phil Carlucci]

Here is part of a brief presentation I'd put together about restoring the famous 11th that was described at one point as (paraphrasing) hopping on stones across a stream.

The county official leading this project told me the restoration of the 10th and 11th would be "special." He's confident the original natural wetlands would be brought back thanks to cooperation from the DEC, which is the key to a true restoration of that transitional part of the course.

[Steve Salmen]

I'm playing golf at Timber Point tomorrow. After reading so many positive things about the course, I'm really excited.

[Phil Carlucci]

I'm playing golf at Timber Point tomorrow. After reading so many positive things about the course, I'm really excited.

Which nines are you playing?  The Red (inland) and Blue (coastal) nines are the ones that trace the original layout.  The White is the '70s-era course that was built in the middle.

[Charlie Goerges]

I'm playing golf at Timber Point tomorrow. After reading so many positive things about the course, I'm really excited.

Which nines are you playing?  The Red (inland) and Blue (coastal) nines are the ones that trace the original layout.  The White is the '70s-era course that was built in the middle.

I remember back when I got the scan of the plan above I wanted to have someone go and play/walk the course and take some photos from along the original corridors in hopes of photoshopping what the course could look like if restored. Probably not worth it now, but if you happen to be near the positions described in the 11th hole restoration images above and can take photos along the original line of play, that might be interesting to look at. No worries either way though.




Edit: I see that a couple of my images above are no longer showing up, I think the problem is onedrive has updated their servers and now the links are broken. Curse you Microsoft! I'm not sure how to fix it, but at least the most important images are still showing.

[Steve Salmen]

I think I'm playing Red and Blue

[SL_Solow]

Has anyone talked to Peter Flory?  His Lido experience would be more than helpful

[MCirba]

My memory may be failing but I seem to recall Tom Doak positing that a restoration of TP would require raising much of the property several inches to protect it from high tide flooding and weather events.   Having just played Seaview Bay last week that has some of those same issues, this is a major financial and logistical challenge, particularly with global climate change accelerating.   That being said, I would love to see it.

[Tom_Doak]

My memory may be failing but I seem to recall Tom Doak positing that a restoration of TP would require raising much of the property several inches to protect it from high tide flooding and weather events.   Having just played Seaview Bay last week that has some of those same issues, this is a major financial and logistical challenge, particularly with global climate change accelerating.   That being said, I would love to see it.

I believe I heard that they did raise the holes along the water by two feet after the damage from Sandy.  But that leaves inland holes like the 11th vulnerable to being swamped in a big storm.  It is likely to be a very big project, which is the main reason I have declined to be involved.

[Joel_Stewart]

My memory may be failing but I seem to recall Tom Doak positing that a restoration of TP would require raising much of the property several inches to protect it from high tide flooding and weather events.   Having just played Seaview Bay last week that has some of those same issues, this is a major financial and logistical challenge, particularly with global climate change accelerating.   That being said, I would love to see it.

It would have to be several feet and not inches.  The tidal surge can be as much as 5-6 feet in really bad storms.


My guess is someone finally got to the county officials and offered to raise a significant amount of money privately.