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Niall C

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Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #25 on: Today at 10:33:25 AM »
Tim


I think we must have a different understanding of the word "depend". If you were to suggest that the economy would be affected by the lack of US golfers you'd get no argument from me. However if you were to suggest that the whole economy would crash leading to St Andrews turning into a ghost town then I'd respectfully suggest that's nonsense.


If you also excluded other overseas golfers then that would have a bigger impact but again it's not going to sink the town. For sure it would be a big blow to the Links Trust but the Links Trust isn't St Andrews and St Andrews isn't the Links Trust. St Andrews has a number of other strings to its bow of which the University is probably the most important.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #26 on: Today at 10:37:02 AM »
I don't think Jay Rayner was suggesting that St Andrews would cease to exist without American golf tourists.  And
that isn't what I read the word "depends" to mean.  I am well aware that other nationalities visit St Andrews.  But I suspect that, ranked by their contribution to the city's GDP, US visiting golfers are the most significant nationality.  Their contribution is certainly significant.  Particularly when you look at, say, top end accommodation and restaurants.


So your outrage at his words appears....misplaced.


Mark


It's not outrage, just annoyance, and I do get it's just hyperbole used in a restaurant review but its still annoying. And everything else you say above I've already said myself. 


As an aside, does anyone have any facts and numbers about the local economy ?


Niall

Bernie Bell

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Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #27 on: Today at 10:37:46 AM »
Economics is not the Guardian's strong suit. 

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #28 on: Today at 02:09:24 PM »
At the end of the day, we are talking about a hotel's restaurant. The critic didn't enjoy his meal, fair enough. What I think a lot of people are objecting to here, at least, what I object to here, is the heaping serving of xenophobia that goes along with the review of the food... at a hotel bar... for tourists.

Quote
smells of newly pumped testosterone

I'm fine with tone setting, but Wittgenstein would have a field day with this one.

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On a weekday night the place is filled with a certain kind of middle-aged man, most of them American. They are not just seated at the tables but thronging between them and leaning over the shoulders of friends at other tables to bark with laughter at each other’s jokes and war stories.

Here we have the appetizer of bigotry. A certain kind of foreigner, you know, the kind we all hate. They're loud, not because their cultural norms are different, but because they're just awful. They should stay in their hotel, away from locals like the author... 

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Dinner service here is crowd control only just masquerading as hospitality.

Oh look, legitimate restaurant criticism when you don't read between the lines.

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His appointment here signified culinary ambition and commitment. It just seems that the core clientele didn’t get the memo. What this lot want – and what they get – is cow. An awful lot of grilled cow.

Ah yes, these boorish customers, away from home, offered and extremely high quality version of a dish they might order at home, especially when they are most likely famished from a day on the links. Plebs... they ought to be ordering the tasting menu after 36 holes walking. To quote a certain kind of middle-aged American man: "Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong."

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Because next to us a table of 10 more pilgrims, presumably here to worship at the temple to golf outside, has just been seated. They also have friends; many, many, friends. They keep pouring into the dining room to have drinks and honk at each other like the table is merely the buffet at some cocktail party. The young, friendly waiting staff deal with this roaming mêlée with grace and efficiency, but Sartre wasn’t wrong when he said that hell is other people. Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted. The issue here, of course, is one of pure economics. St Andrews depends on this ready flow of American golfing tourists and I suppose I should take comfort from the fact that they and their obsessions are, for the most part, corralled up here on the 4th floor. But rarely have I punched the lift button down to ground with such a profound eagerness and glee.

And here we have the main course: some posh prick from the nice side of London takes the train probably flies up to Scotland, and has the audacity to complain about foreigners being in a hotel restaurant. It's not enough that these foreigners are literally keeping to their hotel, they ought not exist.

St Andrews is a college town. It's would be fine with our without these filthy tourists, but it probably wouldn't be able to support these French tire company rated culinary venues. The best parallel would be Stirling University, which does boast one star-rated restaurant... just up the road at Gleneagles.

It just so happens that St Andrews exists on a internationally significant site, and god forbid the internationals, with their different cultural norms, come visit. These people need places to stay, and those places to stay often have restaurants. He didn't love the food and he's in the business of getting clicks, and that's completely fair, but maybe leave the casual arguments for xenelasia to the Daily Mail.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:33:40 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #29 on: Today at 03:36:14 PM »
The critic was insensitive, but do we really expect a restaurant critic to just "do the numbers"? I'm pretty ok letting this one go.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #30 on: Today at 03:47:41 PM »
I'm not 100% positive what I am about to say is accurate but St. Andrews seems about as close to a recession proof city as there is in Scotland.  Between the University (which will always have students) and being the most famous golf destination on the planet (which is represented by a part of the world population that indexes quite high for wealth), it seems to be a place that could certainly be affected by a down economy, but not knocked out by one.
#nowhitebelt

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #31 on: Today at 03:54:08 PM »
Jay certainly has a very diverse background,  won/nominated for what appears to be a very long list of distinguished awards, and has dipped his toes in many pools, seemingly finding success in all of them.  He seems to know his audience well and my hat is off to him for being a modern-day Renaissance man. (Link to bio here, https://www.jayrayner.co.uk/about)

Perhaps these days he's bored and just writes whatever the hell he wants because this one is a bit obtuse.  But then again, he did admit this from the OP Brian posted:  Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted.


« Last Edit: Today at 03:55:41 PM by Kalen Braley »

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #32 on: Today at 04:55:44 PM »
There is a time and a place to criticize the boorish, unwashed masses. I know it happens for me in the tragedy-ridden parts of the commons: the bus, the airplane, the DMV. There will always be conflict in the places where people with different cultural norms must share the same space, I don't fault Rayner for that.

I fault him because he reviews a restaurant for tourists and complains about the tourists. It would be like going to a sports bar and complaining about the televisions everywhere, or going to a concert venue and complaining that you can't have a quiet conversation. It's an absolutely bizarre review in exactly this way.
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Tim Martin

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Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #33 on: Today at 05:19:41 PM »
Jay certainly has a very diverse background,  won/nominated for what appears to be a very long list of distinguished awards, and has dipped his toes in many pools, seemingly finding success in all of them.  He seems to know his audience well and my hat is off to him for being a modern-day Renaissance man. (Link to bio here, https://www.jayrayner.co.uk/about)

Perhaps these days he's bored and just writes whatever the hell he wants because this one is a bit obtuse.  But then again, he did admit this from the OP Brian posted:  Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted.


Seems like Jay had a score to settle with the double poke in the eye as to both the food and the patrons. We know you guys hate us but is it necessary to be so overt in your disdain? ;)
« Last Edit: Today at 05:22:49 PM by Tim Martin »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #34 on: Today at 05:39:46 PM »
Jay certainly has a very diverse background,  won/nominated for what appears to be a very long list of distinguished awards, and has dipped his toes in many pools, seemingly finding success in all of them.  He seems to know his audience well and my hat is off to him for being a modern-day Renaissance man. (Link to bio here, https://www.jayrayner.co.uk/about)

Perhaps these days he's bored and just writes whatever the hell he wants because this one is a bit obtuse.  But then again, he did admit this from the OP Brian posted:  Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted.


Seems like Jay had a score to settle with the double poke in the eye as to both the food and the patrons. We know you guys hate us but is it necessary to be so overt in your disdain? ;)


I was thinking perhaps he has a personal vendetta with the owner of Rusacks, which would be amusing if so, because it would certainly not have any effect on the cow-eating yanks who frequent the place, as they would certainly not be the intended audience of that article.

Given tabloids were supposedly invented in London, I will not deny they are world class experts in writing such hit pieces;)

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #35 on: Today at 05:42:46 PM »
Jay certainly has a very diverse background,  won/nominated for what appears to be a very long list of distinguished awards, and has dipped his toes in many pools, seemingly finding success in all of them.  He seems to know his audience well and my hat is off to him for being a modern-day Renaissance man. (Link to bio here, https://www.jayrayner.co.uk/about)

Perhaps these days he's bored and just writes whatever the hell he wants because this one is a bit obtuse.  But then again, he did admit this from the OP Brian posted:  Doubtless, they would all think exactly the same of me if we got acquainted.


Seems like Jay had a score to settle with the double poke in the eye as to both the food and the patrons. We know you guys hate us but is it necessary to be so overt in your disdain? ;)


I was thinking perhaps he has a personal vendetta with the owner of Rusacks, which would be amusing if so, because it would certainly not have any effect on the cow-eating yanks who frequent the place, as they would certainly not be the intended audience of that article.

Given tabloids were supposedly invented in London, I will not deny they are world class experts in writing such hit pieces;)


The Guardian, whether you like its politics or not, is in no sense a 'tabloid'.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #36 on: Today at 06:58:11 PM »
This guy seems to have a vendetta with golf, golfers, Americans (as an American I get it, but...), just about everything. What a depressing read.  :P


Cheers?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT 18, St Andrews
« Reply #37 on: Today at 07:33:05 PM »
Adam,

His Bio says he writes for The Observer, the Sunday sister-paper to The Guardian.

The article makes more sense in that context of being a whimsical Sunday morning giggle with coffee kind of read, but if the intent was to be an actual serious review, that's even more amusing/baffling than first thought.

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